Frédéric Juillard - TreaTech

00:00:01: Welcome to the Rooted in Change

00:00:04: podcast.

00:00:05: Hey everyone, my name is Jan and you're listening to the Rooted in Change podcast.

00:00:09: This show features European clinic champions and their solutions to tackle the climate crisis.

00:00:13: Today's guest is Frederick founder and CEO at Trey attack.

00:00:18: Sustainability is obviously at the core of this podcast.

00:00:21: Often the founders who join me on this show propose great solutions to reshape products or how industries work.

00:00:29: And oftentimes, it focuses on the input of a process, for example, on novel materials for batteries or construction.

00:00:36: Traiotech is also there to rethink an industry, but they follow a different approach.

00:00:41: Frederick and his team have developed a technology that converts a broad range of waste streams into reusable resources.

00:00:49: A fascinating industry, looking forward to learning more.

00:00:52: Welcome, Frederick.

00:00:53: Hi, Anne.

00:00:54: Thank you for having me.

00:00:56: I always ask my guests as the first question.

00:00:58: What's your background?

00:00:59: Who is the person?

00:01:00: So maybe if you want to introduce yourself, who are you?

00:01:03: Sure.

00:01:04: So while I was born in Switzerland, I'm forty years old now.

00:01:10: And I have a background of life science engineer.

00:01:14: I graduated from a school nearby my place called EPFL.

00:01:19: And that's my background.

00:01:23: Right.

00:01:24: You know, I had a number of conversations now with people who who studied at EPFL.

00:01:31: I think, you know, probably one of the most successful and leading universities in Switzerland, institutes in Switzerland for sort of technology that also has climate applications.

00:01:45: I obviously mentioned in my intro that, you know, waste is a huge, huge problem.

00:01:49: But what sort of sparked your interest or how did you end up founding?

00:01:55: What's the journey there for you?

00:01:57: So, of course, it's a good question because what we do at Tretec is quite far from my backgrounds.

00:02:05: Yeah, exactly.

00:02:06: Especially sort of where you started your studies.

00:02:09: Exactly, exactly.

00:02:10: So I really love my studies.

00:02:13: I finished my master thesis in UC Berkeley where I had the chance to feel a little bit this feeling of the Silicon Valley.

00:02:23: and this was always something that was inside me that I didn't dare really, but I wanted to do something like.

00:02:34: I was very excited about innovation.

00:02:35: I really wanted to do something that could be important, insightful for the world.

00:02:43: And right after my studies, when I came back to Switzerland, basically the main message from the industry was all you need to do a PhD now and right

00:02:54: as sort of the standard next step.

00:02:56: you know exactly in life science it's it's I mean I was really part of the first generation of this specific faculty and yeah the industry was not ready to really capitalize on our background.

00:03:10: so most of my colleagues did a PhD and got some some specialization.

00:03:17: I was already very tired after a lot of time at TPFL and PhD was not really for me.

00:03:23: So, you know, I worked a little bit here and there to make sure that I could leave.

00:03:28: And at the same time, I was very interesting with waste and with energy.

00:03:34: And I felt like there was really something to do about it.

00:03:38: And I started, it's really like the very typical startup story.

00:03:43: So I started with a friend of mine.

00:03:46: We were using the the basement of another friend of us.

00:03:50: And we started to do paralyzes.

00:03:53: So basically the conversion of wood chips and wood waste into a liquid fuel and, you know, designing, crafting some small prototypes, which

00:04:05: was that just for fun?

00:04:06: Or was it sort of what sparked that process?

00:04:08: Because obviously you're right that this is how many great startup stories start that, you know, it's a garage somewhere, it's the backyard.

00:04:17: And, you know, you either you find that technology or, you know, either you worked in the lab, not a sudden it works.

00:04:22: But compared to where you started with your life science background, you know, that journey of, you know, doing that work in a basement somewhere, it's not straightforward.

00:04:31: So what's sort of?

00:04:32: what sparked that interest or what sparked that journey?

00:04:35: It was a little bit for fun, but there was always the idea of, okay, how can we like leave at some point from this very fun activity.

00:04:45: Right.

00:04:45: So maybe that's exactly that impact that Berkeley and the Valley had on you that that on from the real mindset was there, right?

00:04:53: Of course, of course, of course, which is very different from the typical Swiss mindset, I would say, especially in terms of restaking, etc.

00:05:03: And before we decided to go with paralyzes, actually something that was very closer to my background was that we had the idea of using micro-algies to produce biodiesel.

00:05:18: And this is really about tricking micro-algies or micro-organism, DNA,

00:05:23: etc.,

00:05:24: which was really something that was part of my background.

00:05:28: And then when we read about the literature and where the industry was standing, and we did initial budgets of how much it would require to build first like small batch, we said, okay, it's going to be too expensive, we cannot afford that.

00:05:44: Maybe there is something different that we can do.

00:05:47: And that's how we came to the paralyzes and we're going to the soul mill very close to our place.

00:05:56: And taking some stuff and you know making a lot of smoke in this in this basement and you know eventually it worked like we could replicate a little bit what people did already in the in the forties or in the fifties.

00:06:15: and that's the moment where we realized okay unless you have something like new you need innovation you need IP you need like.

00:06:24: you cannot just like it's a complex industry, the clean tech, etc.

00:06:30: people will not buy from you just because you're greener or you can do something like more healthy for the environment, especially because it's usually more expensive.

00:06:41: So

00:06:43: that idea of the green premium, right?

00:06:44: That

00:06:45: absolutely

00:06:45: worked for a long time where people said, you know, because it's green, because it's more sustainable, I'm willing to pay slightly more.

00:06:51: I think that has totally shifted.

00:06:53: Of course, you saw that earlier.

00:06:56: which was something a bit more present back in the days because here I'm talking like twenty twelve, twenty thirteen, you know, at this moment you could, I think you could sell just green, you could sell green.

00:07:12: Today you need to sell something that is cheaper and then if it's green then it's a nice to have thing is the cherry on the cake.

00:07:21: So yeah, we decided at this moment, okay, we should go back to the academia and discuss with these guys and see like, is there any match with something else in terms of innovation?

00:07:35: And that's where I went back.

00:07:38: I started to work with a professor at EPFL that was interested with the specific reactors that we designed for this parallelized process.

00:07:48: And the guy told me that He just patented a very similar reactor, but not for solid waste, mostly for liquid effluence.

00:07:58: Something that under specific conditions can actually remove the minerals from specific liquid waste streams, such as metals, ashes, minerals, different things.

00:08:14: And I was like, okay, great.

00:08:17: There is an IP here.

00:08:18: There is a patent.

00:08:19: So that's beautiful.

00:08:21: How much am I going to fight to be the chosen person to work on this patent?

00:08:29: And well, you know, that's how academic works.

00:08:32: You have these PAG people and these guys, they want to dig and continue digging.

00:08:36: And eventually, I was the only one who was really interested in trying to valorize a patent.

00:08:42: It's not because you have a patent that you're going to make millions or that you're going to sell it very quickly to someone.

00:08:48: So I said, OK, let's start with this.

00:08:53: I had some very great support around me.

00:08:57: friends, families, friends from my network who had a little bit of this entrepreneurship fiber who helped me to get the first funding because this IP was really funded based on numerical simulations.

00:09:17: And then from the computer, we needed to go with the right first prototypes, which

00:09:23: we need to prove it in practice, right?

00:09:26: Of course, absolutely.

00:09:27: And this required a small budget like four hundred thousand Swiss francs.

00:09:33: That's that's what I was looking for back in the days.

00:09:36: Four hundred thousand dollars, let's say.

00:09:39: And well, it took me like a very long time to find this.

00:09:43: When you have a patent, you you feel like, oh, like public grants are going to flow, you know, and we're going to get a lot of money.

00:09:50: But even so, it was very more complex than that.

00:09:54: And the first guy who helped me and said like, okay, I'm going to give you a bit of money, but you need to find someone else because you are going into an industry where you will need a lot of capital in the future.

00:10:09: And this guy, his name, Jean-Jacques Mioton, is a very successful entrepreneur, friend of my dad, actually, that I met like this.

00:10:22: He's part of a family business and is always very excited to support young entrepreneurs.

00:10:29: And he opened to me his network.

00:10:32: And I had the chance to pitch this project to the CEO of Philippe Maurice International, which of course is a tobacco company, but their headquarters are based in Lausanne.

00:10:45: And they are interesting in supporting local companies.

00:10:49: Luckily for me, they were just about to create their innovation funds.

00:10:55: And that was the first... projects that got some funding.

00:11:00: So that was great.

00:11:03: We had not much.

00:11:04: We didn't have much, but we have external investors.

00:11:06: So I had to create a company to secure some collateral for these guys to make a license agreement with the IP from EPFL.

00:11:17: And more importantly, I had to find a team because again, now I was a bit entering into the chemical engineering, more than life science.

00:11:27: So, and yeah, this took me like quite some time to find my first associate co-founder and CTO, who is still our CTO today, Gail.

00:11:38: And Gail was actually working on the next step of this initial IP we had from EPFL.

00:11:50: So, Once you have a reactor that can remove the minerals, you need to have something else that will eliminate the organic fraction from the waste.

00:12:00: And these guys, they spent like two decades in the lab.

00:12:05: And Gail is really one of the dad of this technology.

00:12:08: He was developing specific catalysts that would break all these organic molecules from a liquid effluent into renewable gas.

00:12:20: And, you know, that's how these two IP because he had, he did his PhD at another institute in Switzerland called Polscher Institute, where these guys had a great know-how on the heterogeneous catalysis.

00:12:35: And it's so a bit like this combination between EPFL and this institute, and Gail joined me.

00:12:41: Then suddenly the public funding got, we got a little bit luckier, so we got some grants and able to build a small team and build this first equipment.

00:12:54: and really that was in the year of the year, and we spent... almost until COVID.

00:13:01: So, twenty, nineteen, twenty, twenty, we spent our time at EPFL in the chemical faculty.

00:13:07: We were hosted by a professor that was supportive and interested with the technology and, you know, building first prototypes and working specifically on municipal sewage sludge, which is the residue collected in wastewater treatment plants.

00:13:32: When you deal with waste, the regulatory framework is very important.

00:13:38: In Switzerland, the sewage sludge is something that cannot be land-filled or land-spread on the field by farmers.

00:13:46: It has to be incinerated.

00:13:49: is first very costly.

00:13:50: And when you incinerate such type of feedstock, you eventually lose the minerals that you have there.

00:13:59: And sewer storage is a great fertilizer.

00:14:02: It contains a lot of ammonia, potassium, phosphorus, something that's

00:14:07: really the core of your technology, right?

00:14:09: Because we haven't really covered that.

00:14:10: But let me summarize that from the from the outset.

00:14:14: Ultimately, you take such a a value stream or waste, and you're able to extract those elements that you just mentioned, so potassium and others.

00:14:26: And with the second part of the IP that you described before, you're able to turn the organic components into gas that is then being fed into applications grid.

00:14:43: So

00:14:44: our process allows to eliminate specific liquid waste streams so waste that contains quite a lot of water.

00:14:55: And when you deal with waste, water is actually always an issue.

00:14:59: You want to dehydrate your waste as much as you can, especially if it goes for incineration after that.

00:15:04: So our process really has this great advantage that water is not an issue anymore.

00:15:10: It's actually essential for the good process.

00:15:14: So we eliminate these ways and by doing so we can first recover this mineral fraction that sometimes you can valorize phosphorus, potassium, such things can be really further valorized as fertilizers.

00:15:29: and then we produce renewable gas from the organic fraction.

00:15:33: and what is very important is that the main element that goes into a process is water.

00:15:40: And this is also the main element going outside from its main outcome.

00:15:45: and again when you go for incineration this water is evaporated and lost as steam so in a lot of countries I think water is not worse.

00:15:54: a lot but there are some countries where the pressure on water is really increasing and it's very important to be able to recover a clean water.

00:16:03: That's very important is that the water that comes out outside from our process is industrial grade water can be used in the agriculture or by the industrial.

00:16:13: people could be drinkable water at some point.

00:16:16: but we need further purification.

00:16:19: Which I guess also depends on the local laws, right?

00:16:22: And I think it's interesting what you mentioned there that, you know, the ways before, because of regulation, because of how it's treated is normally incinerated, which also needs energy, right?

00:16:33: So sort of you take a resource stream, you put more resources towards it and then more or less everything.

00:16:40: disappears and also creates emissions, whereas with your approach, it's really circular.

00:16:43: You're able to retrieve the elements.

00:16:45: You're able to create renewable gas and purify the water, which then can be fed into the process.

00:16:51: It's a really cool approach to how to treat waste differently.

00:16:56: Exactly.

00:16:57: Yeah.

00:16:57: The fact that we don't need to evaporate really, because we work with these specific conditions of pressure and temperature.

00:17:07: But This actually allows us to produce energy instead of consuming natural gas to dispose this waste.

00:17:15: And obviously, when you burn water, you need a lot of energy.

00:17:20: And in terms of CO₂ emission, this has a pretty big impact.

00:17:25: So yeah, that's really one of the cool things from this solution.

00:17:29: Nice.

00:17:30: And then we sort of stopped your... And the history of Treyatec around COVID.

00:17:38: So how far have you come then since then over the last five years?

00:17:44: Yes, so obviously COVID was.

00:17:48: didn't help really, but just before COVID, we actually joined forces with Gail's former boss at this Portia Institute.

00:17:56: And we got some funding from the Swiss Federal Office of Energy.

00:18:02: that was a great support for us.

00:18:03: And this funding was really dedicated for the scale.

00:18:06: So in the lab, just to give you an idea, we were working with prototypes with throughput of one kilogram per hour.

00:18:15: And we created these first pilots, which was able to deal with a hundred kilogram per hour.

00:18:23: So we built and designed and commissioned together with PSI and some other suppliers and stakeholders, some supports.

00:18:35: And this was operated for a little bit of time in twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two.

00:18:43: At this moment, we also got some some grants from the European Commission that really allowed us to build a team because before that we were just the three co-founders that we are today.

00:18:55: The third one is our colleague Raquel, also a chemical engineer, our COO today.

00:19:03: And yeah, this grant that we got in twenty twenty really allowed us to build a team, we were maybe seven or ten at the end of of twenty twenty two.

00:19:13: And, you know, it was a bit the moment where we felt like, OK, academia, we have done what we were supposed

00:19:19: to do.

00:19:20: And now it's time that we fly with with our own wings and go a bit to the real world.

00:19:27: Right.

00:19:29: Yes.

00:19:30: How does that look now?

00:19:31: I mean, I think that's the really interesting part that a lot of founders share.

00:19:34: And, you know, I think this way here.

00:19:36: where your journey is also interesting because it's so different from what most other founders do, where normally they do their PhD, you described this very well in the beginning, why this wasn't for you.

00:19:46: But then during their PhD, they discover something, they discover a process, or in your case, what the professor did with the patent, they do that on their own, and then sort of they stay in academia for maybe slightly longer, and then at one point it's time to go out in the real world, so to say, and not to say that academia is real world, but I guess it's different from... Or building a company or at least it's different from you know doing your research and Oftentimes I think this is where it's really hard because what you did sort of on a lab scale and prove that it works on a lab scale works really well and You know you mentioned this before that you had to prove it.

00:20:22: obviously that worked worked well But then scaling this up and out of a sudden talking to your to real customers solving their real needs It's a different ballgames.

00:20:29: How does that look for you?

00:20:32: Of course, of course, because then, especially, I think what was really important for us is that in the lab, you usually work with very specific molecules.

00:20:44: It's not like the kind of ways that you will find in the industry that always have some contaminations, suddenly some heavy metals or some halogenes, whatever, that will be very corrosive for your equipment.

00:20:58: I think, and I'm very happy that we started this quite enough because eventually our solution is something to be sold to big companies.

00:21:10: And with big companies as a startup, it's always very difficult to build relationships, to be credible, and eventually to have them pay for your solution.

00:21:20: So we really started by contacting companies, explaining our technology, and trying to understand their challenge.

00:21:28: do the characteristics of their waste.

00:21:31: and that's how we started like and we did a bit of service with that which was great because we could generate a little bit of revenue as well.

00:21:39: but you had really like several companies sending us then twenty kilogram of their waste that we would process in our you know small prototypes and you know.

00:21:50: say like, okay, this is the quality of the process water.

00:21:52: This is how much gas we can generate.

00:21:55: This would be the ID in terms of KPEX, OPEX for you, and okay, how does it look?

00:22:01: And we saw that for some way streams, sometimes it's not competitive enough.

00:22:06: For some others, it's very competitive.

00:22:09: And, you know, that's a little bit how these things started.

00:22:12: And we also went from the municipal sewage sludge.

00:22:17: that was really our benchmark.

00:22:20: that's really what we use to develop the technology.

00:22:22: it's a very tricky feedstock in terms of technically speaking.

00:22:27: it's a complex feedstock and that's where we open a little bit and say okay now if it works with a very complex feedstock it has to work as well for like other kind of waste.

00:22:39: and that's where we go.

00:22:40: we went to the industry the food and beverage.

00:22:44: the oil and gas, the chemical, the pharma sector.

00:22:47: that are usually the kind of factors that have very strict regulations in terms of waste.

00:22:56: And yeah, I think our process is suitable for them and is a good alternative to the incineration that they need to deal with today.

00:23:06: And how is the feedback in general from your industry partners?

00:23:13: We often see working with the Climatic companies is sort of, you know, you try to push a new solution into the market and We stated before right US isn't even half that that green premium.

00:23:24: So if you say look, it's Compatible or cheaper than the solution that you have now it allows you to reuse you know materials and has Water that you would otherwise pay for again in the waste treatment, you know, you would have to pay for and see for the incineration as well.

00:23:39: So sort of their multiple layers of benefits.

00:23:43: And still, I would argue that there's often a resistance to change or sort of that openness to trying out new solutions.

00:23:50: So how does that look for you?

00:23:52: What's the feedback been?

00:23:54: Especially in the waste sector, because the waste sector is just a few companies in the world.

00:24:02: So innovation, et cetera, it's something that, of course, they want to keep an eye on, but they are not the most bullish because, you know, if there is among twenty people, there is one guy that needs to take the first step and take the risk.

00:24:23: It's a bit more complex than if you arrive in the industry where the big players are like thousands or millions.

00:24:31: So, yeah, waste is a very specific sector.

00:24:35: But I think before that, what is important is that since our technology can Okay, deal with waste but more importantly produce renewable gas.

00:24:46: This is really how these things took off because we've been supported by energy companies.

00:24:55: The people that understood that in the future it's very unlikely that natural gas will still flow in their grades and they need to find some other kind of technologies that will allow them to you know, basically to keep their business because they make money by transporting natural gas or biomythane in their pipes.

00:25:19: And they also have those decarbonization goals as well, right?

00:25:22: For which, you know, natural gas for a long time has been sort of seen as a solution, obviously being out of the fossil fuels, the cleanest, but you're absolutely right that, you know, that business will also come to an end at one point.

00:25:34: So that's a really interesting observation that your approach allows them to continue to operate.

00:25:40: So the energy aspect was indeed very important.

00:25:42: It's really the first big companies that supported the technology that started to move a little bit in this specific world.

00:25:54: But sometimes

00:25:55: that sentiment also changed after Russia invaded Ukraine, like has that element of security become even more important, because I would assume from the start, that wasn't the focus of your technology, right?

00:26:06: The focus was sort of on treating the waste in a better way.

00:26:10: And then, you know, the gas and renewable gas was a nice byproduct.

00:26:14: But I would almost assume that completely turned upside down that that was the focus.

00:26:18: and well, the application is you're

00:26:20: absolutely right.

00:26:21: Yeah, you're absolutely right.

00:26:22: So the we started our first seed series with external investors at the end of twenty twenty one.

00:26:33: And then you know suddenly this conflict happens between Ukraine and Russia and you can see like everyone in Europe panicking about seeing the price of natural gas rising etc.

00:26:45: And at this moment.

00:26:48: I was pitching the circularity of our solution, like, you know, you can produce fertilizer, water, renewable gas, et cetera, on these public sectors with sewage sludge, et cetera.

00:27:01: And at this moment, we really had to, we totally changed our pitch and said like, okay, this is, this technology is actually a weapon for governments that will allow them to generate local gas because today there is so much waste that is exported or not properly valorized and actually we need to consume energy to dispose it.

00:27:25: but tomorrow we can actually generate and local renewable gas and I think this is really what attracted our first investors mostly from the energy and the biogas and energy sector.

00:27:42: so yeah that was important.

00:27:43: but then for these guys sometimes it's It's a bit tricky to understand that to have an economically viable solution, waste is important.

00:27:55: Waste is our input.

00:27:56: We cannot just say, are we going to make millions by producing renewable gas?

00:28:01: Because you have a cost to produce this megawatt hour of gas.

00:28:06: And if you have a client that is willing to pay you, to dispose this waste at the same time, then it's double benefits because you generate money by treating a waste, but also by selling byproducts.

00:28:19: And so I think that's a little bit.

00:28:21: one of the challenge in the clean tech is that for us, we are not only about water, we are not only about waste, we're not only about renewable energy, we are a little bit of all of this, you know, which sometimes, especially for investors, they want you to fit in a box very specifically.

00:28:40: box.

00:28:40: And yeah, sometimes it's a bit complex to like highlight all these different recipes.

00:28:48: Yeah.

00:28:49: Yeah, you're right.

00:28:50: I think sort of what you what you need is sort of that narrative that's easy to understand where you fit you in, right?

00:28:56: Like, you're right.

00:28:57: that you're what I've learned today.

00:29:01: I from the outside have seen you also as a and you heard the intro as a waste treatment company with the additional buyer.

00:29:10: product type.

00:29:10: But what I've learned today is, well, all those parts are equally important.

00:29:14: We'd also discussed the importance of water, which wasn't obvious.

00:29:17: I mean, obviously, I know how incredibly important clean water is and access to water is.

00:29:24: But it wasn't as apparent to me before this conversation, how, you know, how much you benefit or how much you contribute to that as well.

00:29:33: So I think that's really important to create and own a narrative that allows you to really take those boxes fast or even potentially create your own box.

00:29:44: And yeah, you have a slightly harder that you're not just an energy company, not just a waste treatment company, not just a clean water company, but well, thankfully, then also you take all of them.

00:29:53: And I think what's really exciting is also that as you just shared that your business model has sort of those potential upsides on various streams where it is sort of being paid to trade to treat the waste.

00:30:05: but you're also being paid to deliver that energy afterwards.

00:30:09: That's really nice.

00:30:10: And this we really understood also among our investors during the Seed Series in the year of the year, really at the end we met with this Saudi Arabian company, a petrochemical company, and they really brought the challenge about water because they are really in the country where the Royal Commission is pushing for these guys to become more autonomous in terms of water.

00:30:46: Water has a big impact, it's like fully desalinated at first, then the oil and gas is actually using a lot of water.

00:30:53: generating a lot of wastewater, but they have so much energy that it's easy for them to just burn this water, which again ends up as team in the atmosphere and is absolutely lost.

00:31:04: So this shareholder, but also early adopter, it was really the first time we understood about the value of water and the value of being able to deliver clean water.

00:31:21: there is maybe you've heard of the big challenge humanity is facing today with PFAS and micro pollutants, air tunnel pollutants.

00:31:31: So this is the kind of things that I know.

00:31:35: there are many solutions for that, but our technology can also deal with PFAS concentrates that unfortunately today only very high temperature incineration can can eliminate these things and PFAS is everywhere.

00:31:49: So we need to make sure that whatever we treat, we are able to to eliminate all this kind of nasty micro pollutants.

00:31:59: Yeah, yeah, that's really powerful.

00:32:01: And as you just shared your your progress, so how if you had to summarize the journey from, you know, starting in the in the basement, well, actually starting even before to realizing that the PhD was not for you, and then go to the basement, staying in university during the prototyping, and then, you know, raising seed rounds and so on.

00:32:19: How far have you come on your journey?

00:32:23: What do you say?

00:32:25: It's a good question.

00:32:27: I think we always think and you know you do your projections and your financials and your roadmap, etc.

00:32:35: And yeah, it always takes more time.

00:32:38: It's always more expensive than you thought.

00:32:40: And you always think, oh, maybe tomorrow we're going to be like done with our main mission.

00:32:46: But I think

00:32:47: it's a big thing.

00:32:48: That always comes up,

00:32:50: huh?

00:32:50: Yeah, exactly, exactly.

00:32:51: No, I think we had a very nice journey.

00:32:55: I mean, we learned so much.

00:32:57: And also, you know, for startups, timing is so important.

00:33:01: I remember I had some pitching sessions a few years ago.

00:33:08: And I think it was during this war crisis with the energy price being extremely high.

00:33:16: I had some questions from the audience, people saying, oh, but you know what you what you're telling me about?

00:33:22: Too beautiful to be true.

00:33:23: Like, why are you still with your small pilots and why are you like with hundreds of factories around the world?

00:33:31: I

00:33:31: would have asked a similar question.

00:33:32: So I'm looking forward to the answer.

00:33:34: So so well, you know, it's.

00:33:37: it's funny because the concept of this technology is actually more than a hundred years old.

00:33:42: And it's funny to see how You know.

00:33:46: suddenly depending on the needs of the human kind basically things are just like coming from interesting to uninterested.

00:33:56: so the Nazi during World War two didn't have much oil so they did.

00:34:03: this parallelizes converting waste into like this oil for their.

00:34:08: tanks and whatever and then suddenly when we realized there is oil a little bit everywhere during the seventies then this kind of technology was totally dropped.

00:34:19: Now we are back to this kind of things and it's a little bit the same for our technology.

00:34:24: that obviously is something quite complex, it needs, we knew that it was not a two years adventure, we knew that we were going for long marathon and going from TRL two, three to TRL nine with such things, it takes really a lot of time and requires a lot of Capex.

00:34:43: But I think if we would have had the maturity we have today, ten or fifteen years ago, I don't think we would have been successful.

00:34:56: So timing is very important.

00:34:59: That's the case for a lot of startups.

00:35:02: Right.

00:35:02: Because what you're saying is you would have been too early because the market would have not been ready and open to your solution.

00:35:09: And now because the given, okay, really good point.

00:35:13: But to reframe that question then again, the ambition is that, you know, your technology is everywhere, right?

00:35:21: Or do you sort of see that?

00:35:22: How do you see that?

00:35:23: Of course, of course.

00:35:24: So that's, that's also one of the, our main motivation is that we are not just developing something that will be useful for Switzerland or Europe or the US, whatever.

00:35:37: It's really something that can benefit to the world.

00:35:41: I like that.

00:35:42: Really, what you mentioned before, waste is everywhere, right?

00:35:46: Each municipality has waste streams.

00:35:48: So basically, you could be everywhere.

00:35:51: We could be everywhere.

00:35:53: Of course, a lot of industrial process will evolve.

00:35:59: The waste will change.

00:36:00: when it comes to humans, we are not about to stop going to the restroom.

00:36:04: So these kind of ways will always remain.

00:36:07: What will change is that sewage will be more centralized in the future and there are still some countries where only a few percentage of the population is connected to the sewage and this should increase, hopefully, thanks to regulation.

00:36:24: So, yeah, I think that's really, again, one of the things that is really exciting about our business and our mission is that we could really serve people in all kind of countries, but then of course we need to start with those that have like straight regulations.

00:36:42: Yeah, and where it's easiest for you to implement those projects in order to show the rest of the world that they can make that investment, right?

00:36:49: It goes back to what we discussed before, sort of that ability to move and that openness to innovation.

00:36:56: Exactly.

00:36:57: If we're to have that conversation in three to five years again, you know, if you could paint the picture, could wish for a future.

00:37:04: of your liking, what would you say, what will you have achieved by then?

00:37:11: Three to five brings us to, yeah, twenty-a-thirties.

00:37:19: So, yeah, because we need a lot of time, so I think five years is good projection.

00:37:25: So, you know, by then we need to do another fundraising, so a series A, which Okay, that's part of life.

00:37:34: It's not the most exciting topic, but this is something that we need.

00:37:37: Well,

00:37:37: I find it super exciting.

00:37:40: I think what is exciting is to, if you have this luxury of being able to choose your investors, it really opens you like, how much strategic is this money for you?

00:37:52: Like, are these kind of people, you know, with my actual investors, I can do a lot of R&D, I can work on like an early adopter project and these kind of things.

00:38:01: And for the future one, of course, we would like to have the possibility to have people that will open some new doors for us, some either technically or in terms of feedstocks or clients or et cetera, maybe other markets from in the geographic areas.

00:38:21: So yeah, that's clearly something we need to do.

00:38:23: That's more on the short term, so in the next year or so.

00:38:28: And you know, today we have our first industrial pilot.

00:38:34: So we have commissioned at the end of last year.

00:38:38: a demonstration unit that is installed at our first client close to our place in Switzerland.

00:38:44: So these things obviously still need some optimization.

00:38:49: We have a couple of other average size projects in the pipeline, but by And that's, of course, we need to be ambitious and it depends a lot on the business model.

00:39:04: Do we go with licensing?

00:39:06: Do we go with an OEM sale?

00:39:08: Do we want to do service, et cetera?

00:39:10: But the idea for us is clearly to have a mature technology, dozens of units, hopefully installed around the world, having a break even, of course.

00:39:26: Yeah, working a little bit more on like penetrating new markets, penetrating new new sectors.

00:39:35: Yeah, that's the kind of things that would be great to have in the next round.

00:39:42: Well, things crossed that.

00:39:43: all of that comes true for you.

00:39:46: And maybe this brings us home to sort of my last question, because it's been quite a journey since you, well, I had the first idea round trade, I can, you know, found it.

00:39:58: Found a trade tech, you know, for more than, I guess, a decade now than ago.

00:40:04: What is it that keeps you going?

00:40:05: Because, you know, it's sort of, if you look back at all those years, and I think that was also what the question in the audience that you described before pointed towards to, you could say, look, these guys have come quite far, you know, there's industrial demonstrators in the field.

00:40:23: But then again, for a company that's, you know, twelve years or more than a decade old.

00:40:29: You know, if you look at the AI companies, they change the world overnight nowadays.

00:40:32: And like, I know it's obviously different volumes and what you're doing is completely different.

00:40:36: But sort of from the scale of what they're building, you know, if you'd have got the likes of Lovable to give an example, you know, they add a hundred million ARR what within six months, which is crazy.

00:40:46: And you know, super happy for them.

00:40:48: But that's not where we are.

00:40:50: And that's not our space.

00:40:51: So there must be something that that keeps you going in order to continue that journey.

00:40:57: The time frame that you just described until twenty thirty, you know, it's another five years.

00:41:01: So what is it that you have in you that says I'm going to continue on that marathon?

00:41:08: It's a good question.

00:41:09: And I like your your parallel with with AI because, you know, there was this period when.

00:41:18: blockchain and crypto started and now it's AI.

00:41:22: I think that's fascinating technology.

00:41:24: It's really something that we need AI.

00:41:27: I mean, we need to also use this for our process and a lot of things like predictive maintenance and stuff like that.

00:41:35: But you know, for me, these kind of things that are going so quickly you need to be so much at the right time at the right moment.

00:41:44: and

00:41:45: it goes back to the timing question that you said before right like you need to be there.

00:41:49: it can't be too early and you can't be too late.

00:41:51: there

00:41:51: is a lot of competition.

00:41:52: like you cannot believe you're the only one you're up.

00:41:55: you know that some people in the US are already on that some people in China or other places in the world.

00:42:01: so i think the competition is huge and I think that's not really something for me.

00:42:07: As you said, I have a lot of respect and I love what these guys are doing.

00:42:10: But I knew by starting these things that we would really go for a big marathon.

00:42:17: So everything takes more time.

00:42:19: Everything requires more money.

00:42:24: So you struggle a lot.

00:42:26: You suffer.

00:42:27: Sometimes things don't work as it should or as you expected.

00:42:34: So it's difficult moments, but sometimes you just have like this tiny reward, you know, that it can be nothing, just a phone call with someone that tells you like, oh, that's beautiful.

00:42:45: That's exactly what I need.

00:42:47: Or I don't know, these small things that are like very big reward and that can really make you like forget about all the rest and do another step and focus on your work for the next, again, two, three months.

00:43:04: To answer your question, for me, it's about different things.

00:43:08: It's like, I need to know why I do what I do.

00:43:13: And of course, you don't have better than a startup for that.

00:43:17: OK, there is a lot of ungrateful things about startups.

00:43:21: But at least we have this.

00:43:23: We know why we do things.

00:43:25: And today, we have a team of around fifteen people.

00:43:28: And I think all of them know.

00:43:33: in their specific task, daily task, what is the connection with the main strategy of the company.

00:43:42: So yeah, for me, that's super important to have this every morning to wake up and make sure that I'm still excited about doing this.

00:43:53: I think it's also a lot about people, you know.

00:43:57: you have a team, you're responsible for these people, you're responsible for them to provide to their families.

00:44:04: For me, it's very important.

00:44:09: I feel very grateful to have this kind of responsibilities that are, of course, sometimes complicated.

00:44:17: But for me, it's not only about us or the founders or the shareholders, it's really about Yeah, the people and having them, you need to make sure that if you are really ready for this marathon, that the guys that will jump in this train will also be ready for this marathon.

00:44:36: It doesn't work always perfectly and some people are tired a bit before others, but yeah, at some point you know that you have your pillows around and everyone is pulling on the same rope and that's that's really cool thing.

00:44:53: So in startups, it's, I would say it's like very flat for sometimes and sometimes some low, but there is just like some peaks, you know, some very peaks.

00:45:04: that makes like everyone very eager to continue and to give all their energy to deliver this solution.

00:45:16: Yeah, really good observations that I think we're both down to.

00:45:20: for me from What I heard from you is sort of having a strong why.

00:45:23: you know that's super crucial that everyone is mission in line to know how their work contributes to the overall vision of the company and how to get there.

00:45:31: and then we went through these.

00:45:33: through this why quite a bit on today's recording and I think the other part is also knowing that.

00:45:40: It is going to be a marathon is isn't it important aspect in it that you don't expect like you know other tech areas to scale.

00:45:50: immediately?

00:45:51: you know you just describe this as it might be low for some time and you know going into a fundraise and looking at sort of a probably revenue projection sense on the like those especially in hardware climate tech they are often very stable slash low for quite some time until sort of it hits off right and I think that's the exciting part knowing that it does come.

00:46:16: You do see the validation from the market.

00:46:18: There is the demand.

00:46:19: You obviously had the right timing, have the right timing for your solution.

00:46:24: And now it's just really also about execution, which is a different ballgame from before, where it was about proving that it works.

00:46:32: Now it's more about, well, bringing it to market.

00:46:34: Different set of challenges, but not less exciting.

00:46:38: So that's a good reason to get up at least for the next five years.

00:46:41: And then

00:46:43: it's a good point.

00:46:43: It's like having just like clients that you took time with, you understood their constraints, their challenges, and then finally they understand about what you can deliver and just seeing them enthusiastic about it.

00:47:01: You never know if it's the same person, the same human that you're going to sell the final solution in two or three years by now, but just having this kind of confirmation is is beautiful having.

00:47:17: we had some visits of our pilot units from different people stakeholders or investors and some of them so like the very small prototypes and when they see like finally something that looks more like a small factory you know they are proud and they see that we have use their money correctly and in a good way.

00:47:39: And yeah, just seeing this is for us, it's really a big reward.

00:47:44: Yep,

00:47:46: rightfully so.

00:47:47: With that that was a very uplifting and I like that, you know, sometimes working climate tech can be, you know all all doom and gloom.

00:47:54: So I like that.

00:47:55: we ended on a very high note using investors money correctly and scaling from, you know small scale to small factory.

00:48:01: That's that's going to end us on.

00:48:03: so thank you so much for your time and energy on the insights.

00:48:06: really enjoyed it and Looking forward to following your progress.

00:48:10: Thank you.