Hanna Ojanen - Carbo Culture

00:00:01: Welcome to the Rooted in Change podcast.

00:00:05: Hey everyone, my name is Jan and you're listening to the Rooted in Change podcast.

00:00:08: This show features European clean tech champions and their solutions to tackle the climate crisis.

00:00:13: Today's guest is Hannah, head of carbon markets and policy at CarboCulture.

00:00:18: Now, today we'll cover biochar, which is still one of those high topics in the carbon economy.

00:00:24: And I have to admit, I find biochar at times hard to grasp.

00:00:28: What I do know is that biochar is a charcoal-like material made from biomass like wood or crop waste through a process called pyrolysis which involves heating this organic material to high temperatures in a low oxygen environment and then ultimately that carbon is stored permanently.

00:00:47: And we'll learn more about how Carboculture's unique approach works and biochar as well.

00:00:52: How far they've come and what's the view on the carbon economy.

00:00:56: Welcome Hannah.

00:00:57: Thank you Jan.

00:00:58: Good to be here.

00:00:59: And I'm very happy to have you.

00:01:01: Let's start with an easy question to kick things off.

00:01:05: Who are you as a person?

00:01:06: What's your background?

00:01:09: Yeah, thank you for the great introduction to biochar and to carbaculture.

00:01:14: I am Hannah.

00:01:15: As you mentioned, I'm the head of carbon markets and policy at Carboculture.

00:01:20: My background is not actually specifically in carbon.

00:01:24: I'm a liberal arts and sciences major, so quite the generalist, who's always interested in society and philosophy and sort of the big wheels of the world, you know, what makes the world go around and why we do what we do, how we can make it better.

00:01:44: From my background, I actually went into strategy consulting, so quite a good natural continuum for this generalist background, and then did scenarios, some foresight on a wide range of topics, first in the private sector and then in the public sector, and ended up working at the... Prime Minister's office in Finland for Sunday Marines office doing the government report on the future.

00:02:09: Before I joined Carboculture and really, I suppose, for the first time really got deep into one specific area, which is carbon markets and carbon removal and have found it very exciting.

00:02:23: Great.

00:02:24: And then I want to learn more about Carboculture, because you also just mentioned sort of your journey from being a journalist into now.

00:02:32: getting your deep insights into one specific topic.

00:02:35: What is it that you do at CaboCulture?

00:02:38: Yes, so we do biochar carbon removal.

00:02:42: What is that?

00:02:43: As you mentioned, through pyrolysis, so heating waste biomass, we can capture the carbon that the biomass has already captured through photosynthesis.

00:02:53: We take that carbon and we lock it away for good.

00:02:56: So we do permanent carbon storage through the biochar.

00:03:00: Of course, we have nature's own carbon cycle that works.

00:03:04: Trees absorb carbon from the atmosphere and store it temporarily.

00:03:08: We have some long-term carbon storage through fossil carbon, you know, oil and coal.

00:03:15: All of that is nature's own permanent carbon storage.

00:03:18: But we've pumped too much of that into the atmosphere.

00:03:20: So we have to do this man-made carbon removal as well.

00:03:24: And for us, we develop a technology for this.

00:03:28: We develop Carbolisys technology, which is our tweak on pyrolysis.

00:03:33: And we also developed projects.

00:03:35: So actually building those facilities with this technology, doing the contracts.

00:03:42: selling the biochar, selling the carbon credits, selling the energy.

00:03:47: So through this pyrolysis process, we not only produce the biochar that can be stored underground and also providing co-benefits, so water retention, nutrient retention, healing the soils, but also some energy, renewable energy and carbon credits that companies and countries that have a net zero goal can use to actually achieve their net zero goal.

00:04:11: It's carbon removal is what puts the net in net zero.

00:04:15: Yeah.

00:04:16: And what's your specific use?

00:04:20: P because I feel they mentioned this in the intro as well.

00:04:25: The sector is so broad and biochar is one of those high topics.

00:04:29: right when you go to a conference and they talk about carbon removal, biochar enhanced weathering, they always come up and then there's different approaches to to go about that.

00:04:40: Many talk about those co-benefits, many talk about, well, Biochir does have those positive effects on soil, water quality, and so on.

00:04:52: Where do you sit?

00:04:52: Like, what do you bring to the table that no one else has?

00:04:56: Yes, that's actually a great question because we do a lot.

00:04:59: So, first of all, the technology is very carbon efficient and energy efficient.

00:05:04: So we cover all of our own energy needs.

00:05:07: We're not taking away from the grid going green.

00:05:09: We're actually helping it go green.

00:05:11: In addition to that, we're getting the most out of the carbon in the biomass into the biochar.

00:05:18: So storing a lot of the carbon.

00:05:22: be questioned also in the biochar sphere.

00:05:24: And then thirdly, because of our technology, the biochar is so high quality that we can actually use it in greenhouses before putting it in a soil storage.

00:05:33: And in the greenhouses, we can replace peat and other fossil grown meat components.

00:05:39: So also providing additional emissions reductions throughout our pipeline.

00:05:44: Of course, in addition to that, we are a European actor.

00:05:49: There are not many biochar companies that are actually operating in the European Union.

00:05:54: And we really believe in the European market and European actors and European methodologies and sort of really.

00:06:02: kicking off the scale in carbon markets.

00:06:06: That's something that we're also working on.

00:06:08: So being able to build these larger facilities, they're actually creating a lot of carbon removal.

00:06:12: And that's what we're doing now, actually.

00:06:15: Right.

00:06:16: And we're going to talk about that in just a second.

00:06:18: Let's stay sort of on the ecosystem and the idea slightly longer.

00:06:23: What sparked creating carbon culture?

00:06:27: Because again, sort of with biochar, for me, you often hear Stories, for example, someone was traveling and you mentioned you're focused on Europe, which is quite unique.

00:06:37: Often the story goes, hey, we travel to Asia, we've been in Africa, sort of solved problems there on the ground, but also saw that people used biochar, we thought about scaling this, and then we started the company.

00:06:51: And now maybe we bring European tech, but to international markets.

00:06:56: It feels like you have a different approach there.

00:06:58: So what's the back story?

00:06:59: Well, actually,

00:07:01: our story also started outside of Europe, but in California.

00:07:05: So our co-founder is Henrietta and Chris met and Chris knew the technology.

00:07:11: He knew of the potential of pyrolysis and of biochar carbon removal.

00:07:17: Henrietta had several startups before.

00:07:19: She was an entrepreneur, very much of the business side of things.

00:07:25: Really wanted to find a place to put her skillset where she could bring the most impact and the most positive change.

00:07:33: And so by meeting Chris, the pieces came together.

00:07:37: And the story of carbon culture started in a place called Walnut, California.

00:07:42: So we were using waste walnut shells as a biomass source actually, to create to create biochar carbon removal and the biochar.

00:07:50: Gotcha.

00:07:51: And then maybe on the European side, how do you envision that ecosystem going?

00:07:59: forward to going to play out because you mentioned that if you want to bring a European technology to European landscape, create a European carbon market, how do you see that?

00:08:08: Yes, so we're one of the few success cases of actually transporting our R&D from the US to Europe.

00:08:16: Often we see this happening in reverse.

00:08:17: Going the opposite way around here.

00:08:19: Exactly.

00:08:20: We actually got a grant from the European Union, the European Innovation Council grant that catalyzed this change.

00:08:28: And we're seeing so much great talent in Europe, so many great stakeholders, not just in the in the carbon market side, but also not just in the engineering side, but also in the pipeline.

00:08:41: So for instance, the Netherlands and different member states who are very advanced in agriculture and growing media components and horticulture and greenhouses and actually being able to solve the value chain and find solutions for the value chain.

00:09:01: When we talk about carbon removal, it's not just the capturing of the carbon rights.

00:09:05: with whatever technology you're doing it with, whether you're doing it with bioenergy, with carbon capture and storage or direct air capture and storage.

00:09:13: We see the facilities where there's the carbon capture outlets or the big fans in Iceland, but the story doesn't end there.

00:09:22: If you don't have a storage location for that carbon, there's no carbon removal taking place.

00:09:26: And it's the same with biochar.

00:09:28: So by tapping into these greenhouses and this horticulture, by replacing these fossil-grown media components, we can actually tap into existing supply chains and create European storage for permanent carbon removal, which is at the moment quite scarce.

00:09:45: Yeah, I would agree.

00:09:48: You're on the podcast today because I think that's quite an underrepresented and untold story.

00:09:54: yet.

00:09:55: It doesn't feel like... And that part of the story has gained a lot of attention.

00:10:02: So, you know, this is why we're talking today.

00:10:05: And let's just say on that topic also for a second, because you mentioned sort of the important role of the Netherlands.

00:10:11: If I'm correct, you have plans or at least you're... You have announced something to build in the Netherlands, maybe enlighten me what that was and how far you've

00:10:22: come.

00:10:22: So in the Netherlands, we're building our ARC project in Middenmier in North Holland.

00:10:27: It will be the largest carbon removal unit in Europe at its inception when it's operational in twenty twenty seven.

00:10:35: It will be removing twenty six thousand tons of CO two per year and providing providing biochar and energy to our co-location partners.

00:10:45: There's hectares and hectares of greenhouses that are excited to use this renewable growing media component and replace it, replace fossil ones with it, and also offtake the energy.

00:10:58: We'll be producing renewable energy to greenhouses and data centers.

00:11:03: So very excited about this all coming together.

00:11:06: When you're trying to solve several problems at once, it sometimes takes time to find a location where all the pieces come together.

00:11:14: Yeah, it sounds like you found one right there with the Netherlands.

00:11:18: I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts.

00:11:21: Are the Netherlands one of the prime markets then for you?

00:11:24: because of the strong agricultural footprint, your ability to bring renewable energy to the grid, providing all those co-benefits, and I guess also because the the country in itself is quite connected.

00:11:39: Is that a first real easy market for you?

00:11:42: How do you see that

00:11:43: overall?

00:11:44: Yes, the Netherlands is a great market for us, not only because of the advanced horticulture industry.

00:11:51: I mean, it's one of the largest food exporters in the world as a country.

00:11:55: In addition to that, it also just unleashed a negative emissions roadmap.

00:11:59: So really looking at how the Netherlands as a country can support negative emissions and so therefore also carbon dioxide removals such as biochar and create this national competence in this industry as well.

00:12:14: This is also something that's or just a small example of what's happening in the European Union as a whole with different member states coming up with whether it's a pyrolysis strategy.

00:12:26: kind that Denmark did, or just the carbon removal and carbon farming regulation that the European Union adopted last year.

00:12:35: There's so much happening.

00:12:37: Right.

00:12:38: And how do you see that scaling forward?

00:12:40: Because you mentioned that you're not just a technology provider, but also a project developer.

00:12:44: So I would assume sort of with the project that you just described in the Netherlands.

00:12:50: That's one of those where you own the full value chain of services and products you provide to sell them and commercialize them.

00:13:00: Once that facility is fully operational and live in the Netherlands, what are the next steps for you?

00:13:06: Yes, so while we're developing ArcMiddenMirror, of course, we have a pipeline of other projects that are not yet live or we haven't announced, so continuing to work on those.

00:13:16: What's great about biocharcarbon removal is that you can we can look where's the greatest location just from the energy off-taker and the biomass sources and really develop projects quite liberally because of the ability to use existing infrastructure.

00:13:38: We need roads, we need trucks, we need an energy off-taker, but we don't need anything.

00:13:45: anything more than that.

00:13:47: And so continuing to develop those projects.

00:13:50: Currently, we're looking at projects in Northern Europe and the Benelux region, but very exciting opportunities also outside of those regions.

00:13:59: And so continuing to develop those scaling up and then duplicating and replicating what we did at Middenmere.

00:14:07: Yeah.

00:14:09: I'd be also interested in hearing your thoughts, given your policy background.

00:14:15: In scale of technology, there's always this question of first of a kind, right?

00:14:20: Like this sort of commercializing technology.

00:14:22: And I think this is what you described before as well.

00:14:28: Bringing international technology to Europe.

00:14:31: And normally it goes the opposite way around.

00:14:33: Like we do good R&D in Europe and then, you know, the markets are somewhere else and we sell it to someone else and they make it big.

00:14:39: And it feels like you're going the opposite way, which is really exciting for the European landscape.

00:14:44: How do you see that in terms of bringing really that full first commercial technology or first full commercial facility to the market?

00:14:54: What have been the major challenges or how did you plan for that?

00:14:57: How did you mitigate potential risks even on the way?

00:15:00: Yeah, big question.

00:15:01: I mean, of course, a lot of answers, a lot of questions inside that one big question.

00:15:06: So for us, as I mentioned, the European Innovation Council grant was really a catalyst in creating our last R&D demo plan.

00:15:14: That's already the largest CDR plant in Europe right now.

00:15:19: It's in the Greater Helsinki region.

00:15:21: in Finland.

00:15:23: And since then, of course, there's so much that goes into product development and it really takes time because it's hardware, it's not software.

00:15:32: So we, you know, everything from basic engineering and detailed engineering.

00:15:39: you know, from that point of view, then from the commercial point of view, you know, abiding by project finance principles.

00:15:45: So having off-take agreements to all of our outputs, you know, building those client relations, and then of course, you know, the actual COPEX financing itself.

00:15:56: So for us, you know, we're seeing there are a lot of great instruments in the European Union, you know, such as the European Innovation Fund, specifically targeting these kinds of first of the kind projects.

00:16:06: We've seen it also, it financed Stockholm Exergies project and in Stockholm, the BEX project, for instance.

00:16:14: So there's some examples of financing of carbon dioxide removal solutions, despite the early market.

00:16:22: What we saw, from previous announcements of commercial facilities, whether it was, for instance, the Stockholm Exergy one, you know, it took them nine years to get into FID from the conception.

00:16:36: So there's a really long process, even with grants, even with COPEX and OPEX grants that they've received.

00:16:44: So of course, you need to... be mindful of that and understand the realities.

00:16:49: that of course as a startup we can move faster, we can be more flexible, we can be more nimble, but there are also just things like permitting that take time and for us our engineers are really talented in what they do, I always follow it with awe.

00:17:07: you know, anything, you know, when you talk about project gates or timing and how can we, how can we actually do something or order something somewhere that's going to save us six months down the line, you know, it's really an architecture that comes together.

00:17:22: And of course, from my point of view, I have more visibility into the contracting side.

00:17:28: And for us, we've had some great clients who are really key anchor clients in committing into these long-term offtake agreements, whether it's from the biochar side or from the energy side or from the carbon credit side, to really be able to... to not only, of course, secure carbon credits or biochar for themselves, but to be able to anchor this project and its commercials.

00:17:57: I love your take, because it's quite an optimistic one and a positive one.

00:18:02: Maybe this goes back to your previous role also, and former Prime Minister Sander Marin.

00:18:10: But it feels like you're quite bullish on on Europe as a market in sort of a region overall because normally the story goes look it's so hard and it doesn't work but it feels like with Carboculture you're actually proving that you know all the right tools are there and we can make it work.

00:18:28: yes you know it's still it's still hard work and takes time and so on but that's that's always true like great like that doesn't go away.

00:18:36: it feels like quite an optimistic take on on the ecosystem which I find quite refreshing.

00:18:40: Yeah,

00:18:41: I think personally, I'm very used to long time frames.

00:18:45: So we used to do four sides, you know, for large, you know, European and Finnish public listed companies, you know, we were looking at, you know, both, you know, okay, from three to eight years, what's going to happen to to longer time frames, you know, in Finland, you know, the Prime Minister's office like, okay, scenarios for Finland up until twenty fifty.

00:19:03: So, so for me, I'm personally at least, not afraid of these long time frames, you know, from the policy side of things, you know, you kind of have to have that that patience and that that nerve, because otherwise you wouldn't last, you know, a year.

00:19:16: You know, we've been talking about an ETS integration, for instance, of carbon dioxide removals in the European Union for years now.

00:19:25: And and maybe to open that acronym as well.

00:19:27: It's the, yeah, the EU emissions trading scheme that's currently being used to trade emissions allowances.

00:19:33: And there's been discussions that it could be, it could be sort of changed in a way where you could actually trade carbon removal units.

00:19:43: And this is something, for instance, that is very much moving full speed in the machinery, but it's still only going to be reality in five years time in twenty thirty.

00:19:57: But for us, for instance, that's a great time frame because project development also takes time.

00:20:02: That actually goes hand in hand with your plans to say, look, that would work perfectly for us.

00:20:08: Exactly and there's been.

00:20:10: the European Union has a net zero goal by twenty fifty and there was another great policy signal for the year twenty forty.

00:20:18: that of course now is fifteen years away but still a very important signal.

00:20:25: In the sense that most of the climate actions that the European Union can do so you know ninety five percent of whether it's emissions reductions are carbon moves have to also come from the European Union.

00:20:37: So the European Union is kind of realizing that.

00:20:39: okay if they want to have this new.

00:20:43: You know exciting opportunity of actually building a new industry and being a leader in it you know we.

00:20:48: I am positive, but I'm also realist in also saying that Europe has lost on quite a few opportunities to become a leader in many technologies and in many facets of industry.

00:21:00: And this is really an opportunity for Europe to be a torchbearer and show how things can be done right.

00:21:06: And I think it's not only about the technology and supporting projects, but also about the methodologies of what is good carbon removal?

00:21:14: Because at the end of the day, it's also all about trust.

00:21:17: It's a digital token, carbon credits that you get.

00:21:21: It's not physical.

00:21:22: And you have third party verifiers, you know, lifecycle analyses that you do to verify that this carbon removal actually took place.

00:21:30: And I think in Europe, we actually have a chance to do it right.

00:21:34: And we have a great certification companies and registries that have high integrity and and have a lot of experience in something that the public sector can piggyback on.

00:21:46: And so I think the whole ecosystem is what makes me so optimistic and positive.

00:21:52: And yeah, just excited about the next fifteen years or twenty-five years.

00:21:57: Well, and as we've just touched on time scales, let's shorten them slightly.

00:22:03: You mentioned those at the twenty-thirty goals.

00:22:05: If we stay on that in five years' time, Where are you with Carboculture?

00:22:12: Yeah, so with Carboculture, our arc facility in five years time has been operational for a couple of years.

00:22:20: So also, having had that experience of... of launching it, building it, we're most likely going to be at the same time building two other facilities, at least, because of course with project development, we are also building the internal capacity to then have this project development team.

00:22:41: So this sort of internal task force that, you know, build up and developed ARC and then can then go and train the

00:22:48: and run

00:22:50: projects in parallel.

00:22:53: So I think those are the most exciting things for us, of course, through our clients and stakeholders.

00:23:00: We would have then seen our biochar being used in greenhouses and seeing the benefits that it's giving in the horticulture sector, providing this green energy that's also replacing some LNG actually in these areas.

00:23:16: And so just seeing that come into fruition, also engaging with our stakeholders, hopefully having.

00:23:26: Yeah, actually, yeah, in five years time, we should be trading under the emissions trading scheme as well.

00:23:32: We just had a meeting with DG Energy from the European Commission and right now we're at the level of detail of like, okay, should it be you companies directly trading under the ETS or should the European Union purchase these credits and then trade them?

00:23:47: Should the countries purchase them, member states?

00:23:50: purchase them more.

00:23:51: So I think it will be interesting to see all of this, you know, machinery play out.

00:23:56: Yeah, but it's not a question anymore, whether and if it's more of the question of how.

00:24:00: so that obviously is already a success for you to say, look, that has really advanced and we're seeing progress there.

00:24:08: Look, and then on the on the broader and wider.

00:24:12: Scope.

00:24:13: I mentioned before that I found your take on the European landscape quite refreshing quite positive.

00:24:18: and yet you could say if you look at the even at the carbon industry at a whole you know Two years three years ago.

00:24:24: There was this massive scandal.

00:24:26: I think that unraveled quite a bit things, you know, can we still trust carbon credits?

00:24:32: that I think was a bit of a setback for the for the industry.

00:24:36: and then if we look at climate technologies in general.

00:24:41: You also mentioned direct air capture, you know, all these projects that already in terms of being on the ground are ahead of you because they have sites that are operational.

00:24:52: If you look at the reporting there, you always see, well, you know, the big ambitions and the actual impact has been maybe smaller than anticipated so far, I think is sort of the fair way to express that.

00:25:07: Yeah.

00:25:08: And not to say that, you know, Carbaculture is hopefully going the opposite way, you know, delivering more impact and as you also have so many different side aspects to your business with the energy, with the positive impact on soil and so on.

00:25:22: I think there's a lot to gain.

00:25:25: Yet I wonder how do you and I stay hopeful?

00:25:29: What makes you get up in the morning and say, look, all those challenges had, look, you know, climate change isn't getting any better, emissions are still rising, policy landscape is moving fast in terms of the machinery, but slow in terms of the actual impact.

00:25:43: We're talking five, ten year time horizons.

00:25:47: We're building a hardware-led business, so we're announcing something today and the full operation will be after two years from now.

00:25:57: What makes you still get up on a dark, healthy morning in order to go to work and say that I'm giving it my all today again?

00:26:05: Yeah, good question.

00:26:08: No, uh... It's actually quite clear.

00:26:10: I remember when I first started at the Prime Minister's office, my supervisor and I had a brief chat about just my background and what was in store for the year.

00:26:19: And because it was my first experience at the public sector, he also wanted to give me some words of guidance in my journey.

00:26:29: And I remember he told me that Hanna, if you want to create change in the public administration or in the public sector, it's not going to take two years, it's going to take twenty years.

00:26:38: years.

00:26:39: And I think that's something that kind of gave me this, this, even with all of the, you know, the energy and the excitement and the, the, you know, the excitement and the ability to actually move fast as a startup and to create concrete change and see concrete change, you know, is still always realizing that it's going to take, it's going to take a while.

00:27:03: So I think that's something that that's that has stayed with me.

00:27:09: And I think the change that we're creating at Carboculture, for instance, it's not just about this one project.

00:27:17: It's not just about that.

00:27:18: once ARC is operational, we'll see the change.

00:27:22: It's building the company and creating the company every day and learning new things about whether it's from... branding.

00:27:32: It's a startup, so you have several hats sometimes.

00:27:36: Our CEO and I created our entire brand and our website a few years back.

00:27:44: There's so many things that you learn every day and you're building the internal competence inside your company as well to face bigger and bigger challenges and to grow your team and to grow your understanding of the market.

00:27:56: And I think those changes are something that I see every day and those improvements are something I see every day.

00:28:02: And that's something that really makes me excited and can sort of allow me to hold on to this North Star goal of whether it's the ETS integration or... or actually having carbon removal in the European Union.

00:28:16: Because of course, you know, I think a lot of those news pieces and those sort of disappointing news from some existing operational facilities inside the CDR space have come from maybe a bit of cutting corners or saying something that's not really ready yet or kind of trying to anticipate something or what's the what's the word for it?

00:28:43: You know, in finish, we have a. we have a saying when you lick before it drops, you know, right?

00:28:49: Yeah, I think sort of maybe this is a good examples of how the market has changed and evolved over the last years, because obviously, you know, in, in my field, there's two ways to create a real buzz in terms of news and, you know, gaining media exposure, either you have something that creates emotions and emotions often sort of connected to, you know, fear and failure.

00:29:16: You know, this is sort of, it hasn't worked out, that's newsworthy reporting.

00:29:20: We don't really talk about the hundred times a day that where something small has worked out, that's not newsworthy, it's the big things that have failed, that's what we're looking at.

00:29:29: If you think of, you know, the first thing that now came to my mind, bridges collapsing, we always talk about the one bridge that collapses, we don't talk about the one hundred that hold.

00:29:37: uh steadily and you know work the way they should perform the duties every day.

00:29:42: so that's the one thing.

00:29:43: and the other piece obviously how you can gain media coverage is you have really big ambitions that you say we're going to be the whatever.

00:29:51: and then I think the important part is you need to live up to those expectations that obviously as you're creating a market that's well unchartered and wasn't really there and you're a pioneer in technology.

00:30:02: That's tough, and we know it's tough.

00:30:04: And then obviously the second part that I mentioned before kicks in.

00:30:08: If you're not able to, the reporting will be, look, company X, Y, that has had those high ambitions and they have failed.

00:30:15: And I think that's the reporting that we've seen over the last years.

00:30:18: That's also the example with the credit and cover credits that I mentioned earlier.

00:30:23: But in terms of where the market is now, I feel, you know, is there's a second generation of companies coming along.

00:30:30: That know all of this already and I'm moving at a at a different speed Maybe a bit also under the radar to say that we're building this quietly, you know with a certain amount of attention But we're actually building it delivering it and then we're gonna talk about it, which is I also find quite refreshing and Maybe that's also part of your answer that you that you mentioned before look and I see the impact that we're delivering every day in what we're building every day ultimately becomes this platform idea right where you say look we have all this internal capabilities and capacity and ultimately can run projects side by side which is exciting to see for you.

00:31:09: Yeah

00:31:11: and I think you know.

00:31:12: referring back to my generalist background, actually, when I was younger, I always thought I would become a history professor.

00:31:18: That was my dream job, actually.

00:31:20: And I think that background sometimes helps in this same question as well, because you're seeing a lot of things that weren't normal or weren't, you know, adopted widely in society happen, you know, or become the norm.

00:31:33: You know, like if you talk about carbon removal as, you know, cleaning emissions and actual waste management.

00:31:42: We used to not have proper even waste management in the European Union, in a lot of European capitals.

00:31:48: Trash was just left on the streets.

00:31:50: People thought that that was the norm and someone would have had this grand vision of, okay, let's do proper waste management.

00:31:58: At the time, it would have seemed absurd or very far-fetched.

00:32:02: But so many examples like that, I think, you know, we can take on from history and sort of make it, yeah.

00:32:13: And to see that, you know, yes, carbon removal seems niche today, but that doesn't mean that it won't be widely adopted in the future.

00:32:23: And also that, you know, if the logic works, you know, like the logic of, okay, if you throw a bin bag on the street, you know, you should also make sure that it's collected and managed versus okay, if you emit a ton of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, someone should also clean it up and it should be managed.

00:32:41: Yeah, and we do see change happen quite fast.

00:32:44: I think there's this psychological pattern where I think we both underestimate and overestimate the rate of change as human beings.

00:32:55: And right now it feels you know, in the day-to-day business, I guess, for me and probably not so much for you working in a startup, but for me, the market doesn't feel as vivid as it could be.

00:33:08: It's just that like it doesn't feel like it's mainstream just yet, but that doesn't mean it won't be mainstream in five years time.

00:33:14: And I think that's the really exciting part that, you know, we're moving to this.

00:33:17: if you use this example on the podcast before with the EV adoption, you know, a couple of years back even a decade ago, you wouldn't really see EVs on the streets now.

00:33:28: It's highly likely that you know someone who owns an EV if you're not yourself driving one.

00:33:33: You know, if you look at car sales and so on, the number of new cars that are being sold that are electric, it's just sort of, it's exploding everywhere.

00:33:40: you see the infrastructure being there.

00:33:43: And that has changed a whole, a whole very big industry very fast.

00:33:47: I don't want to say overnight because it hasn't been overnight, but fast.

00:33:50: And I think that's the progress.

00:33:52: that we can see in the Epoch two.

00:33:54: one example I would say this is another example of where change can happen.

00:33:59: even though it doesn't feel in that particular moment like it it comes around in.

00:34:03: that at least gives me hope.

00:34:05: Yes same and and this hiatus it kind of seems like quite quite similar to the market actually maturing instead of a lot of, you know, big promises and big talk and loud talk.

00:34:18: It feels like a lot of our clients and stakeholders, you know, have kind of gone more internally and discussed, you know, internally within their companies.

00:34:26: Okay, this is happening.

00:34:27: How do we actually do it?

00:34:28: And that's a lot more silent to the outside viewer because, you know, instead of these big announcements or promises or big strategy announcements without anything concrete, like this is actual.

00:34:39: concrete operational work that's happening inside companies of, okay, how do we do this reporting?

00:34:45: How do we budget for this?

00:34:47: How do we establish an internal carbon price within our companies?

00:34:53: And I think this kind of silence is kind of the sound of a maturing market as well.

00:34:59: Yeah, and maybe the sound of actual work.

00:35:02: I think this is a nice metaphor in a silence is the sound of actual work.

00:35:06: That's gonna stick with me.

00:35:08: I like that.

00:35:09: Look, Anna, this was really inspiring.

00:35:12: I like your energy.

00:35:13: I like your optimism.

00:35:15: Fingers crossed for you and for Carboculture that your big plans come through.

00:35:19: And I'm looking forward to catching up in the future to see how far you've come.

00:35:22: Thank you so much, Jan.

00:35:23: This was a pleasure.

00:35:24: And thank you for supporting my optimism.

00:35:31: I think more optimists are needed.

00:35:33: If anything, more optimists are needed in the world.

00:35:37: Great, and thank you for the conversation as well.

00:35:40: Thank you.