Oscar Hållén - Cemvision

00:00:01: Welcome to the Rooted in Change

00:00:04: podcast.

00:00:05: Hey everyone, my name is Jan and you're listening to The Rooted In Change Podcast.

00:00:08: this show features European clean-take champions and their solutions to tackle climate crisis.

00:00:13: Today's guest is Oscar CEO at SanVision.

00:00:15: Reusing byproducts from other industries to foster more sustainable product or solution Is something that we talk quite a bit on in this podcast And it's the core of san visionist approach.

00:00:25: They work towards a cement industry That no longer relies on virgin resources.

00:00:30: Instead, for the first product they convert industrial residues like steels-like and mining tailings into cement using green electricity.

00:00:38: This results in a high performance product that cuts carbon emissions by up to ninety five percent compared traditional methods.

00:00:44: We'll find out how this works exactly with Oscar In just few minutes.

00:00:48: Welcome Oscar!

00:00:50: Thanks much.

00:00:51: A pleasure to be here.

00:00:52: Well I'm super excited to have you on this show.

00:00:55: My first question to my guest is always, who are you as a person?

00:00:58: and I've done bit of background research on.

00:01:03: You have an unusual background for climate tech founder and CEO so tell me how did end up in this position that your in today?

00:01:12: What was the journey ?

00:01:14: I am very passion driven by nature.

00:01:20: started off and graduated now several years ago.

00:01:26: I followed my passions, wanted to do good and create something better.

00:01:34: at first that answer was through politics And then ultimately it came where i am today by being part of an entrepreneurial driven journey change the world for something better by innovations and scaling those innovations.

00:01:55: For their greater good of humanity?

00:01:58: Yeah, I mean that's quite a big vision you have there.

00:02:03: in your mission on this show we talked about cement before most of us know.

00:02:11: now they cement sector is an issue because if inherent chemistry that is needed and being followed in order to produce cement.

00:02:24: So, how did you come up with or first get in touch with the sector overall?

00:02:30: Did you learn about it and identify if there was something wrong when facing this

00:02:37: problem?

00:02:37: I think... ...I have a lot of conversations with my partner on the state of affairs in the world.

00:02:48: I mean, as I assume most have with their significant others you discuss things like that.

00:02:54: where are we heading?

00:02:56: And... We.. You know In Sweden Where i live On each Sunday you go to the Swedish church where you put paper into paper and plastics into plastics.

00:03:13: So many times have we stood there and asked ourselves, is this really how make a difference considering the state of affairs?

00:03:23: Of world climate change.

00:03:28: The honest answer probably yes to a certain extent for sure.

00:03:33: whatever everything we do adds up.

00:03:38: but as in person With a personality like myself where you're very effective driven.

00:03:43: You always search for how can I make it greater impact, right?

00:03:47: How can i get additional leverage?

00:03:50: And we had a lot of discussions.

00:03:51: my wife is in the real estate business.

00:03:55: We have been discussing the impact of construction over many years and then as things often are in life by happenstance you getting contact with A friend who knows a friend and suddenly I found myself across the table of our founders, Klaas and Paul who were discussing the innovations.

00:04:17: that's a foundation of ZenVision.

00:04:20: And they were at very early beginning of their journey... ...and we had a conversation for a long time I think over year almost where ultimately decided to join forces.

00:04:34: That was sort of the beginning mental mulling over the state of affairs combined with, I guess pure luck and then happenstance.

00:04:46: Probably also a perfect combination of things right?

00:04:48: That sort of reflection that you can do more outside your private life And i think you know The recycling journey or the recycling example that he just gave is A good one to say look this Is really much what happens at home.

00:05:00: But Then they Also spent these eight To ten hours each day in a job where I could if I contribute time and my energy to something really make a difference as well.

00:05:10: And probably that compounds it whole lot more impact than just doing the recycling on Sunday afternoon, so thats'a really good reflection I guess is for that journey.

00:05:22: As you mentioned this year long conversation with founders in the invention maybe talk about what the actual invention that they had or actually insight into, then what became the backbone of Semvision's technology and approach?

00:05:39: So there are several innovations underpinning Semvision.

00:05:48: The sort-of starting point is as you began with explaining this double whammy in terms of CU II emissions from the cement industry both in terms of the raw material that you use, which contains a significant amount of CO₂ and process as such to get chemical reactions needed.

00:06:10: And on top of this I think we should also add an industry far from innovation driven.

00:06:19: It's an industry where it is very much focused on process optimization but there are few innovations over time.

00:06:29: One of the last significant technical innovations is the pre-calcination that came in the nineteen seventies.

00:06:37: Right, which was fifty years ago now?

00:06:39: Yes!

00:06:40: So looking at it before joining SanVision I came from a fintech where you wake up every day and there's new app for a product that didn't know existed but level innovation speed so much different.

00:06:57: And then there are reasons for why it can't happen in a world where you deal with physical assets, the same way.

00:07:04: For sure!

00:07:04: I think that's also really good reflection.

00:07:06: and just to add to that... That coming from background of digital products like FinTech or other approaches as well… It helps us make a difference in climate space because we bring speed at that moment for innovation, because you know what's possible.

00:07:26: Because we've seen this over the last ten-fifteen years how much our lives have changed due to great digital products that were using now on a daily basis.

00:07:36: and just bringing that mindset of innovation is possible.

00:07:38: it's needed as helpful.

00:07:40: I think thats really um...a game changer not just in the cement industry but climate tech one general

00:07:46: And i totally agree with that that it's important to also not be as respectful of the old answers.

00:08:03: I think in the tech world there is absolutely zero respect for all innovations.

00:08:12: And then there are nuances to this, for sure.

00:08:16: That's important to keep in mind.

00:08:18: but looking at sort of transition and innovations it is really the core on the chemistry side where the cement chemistry that we utilize allows us to tap into different types of feedstocks and allow us move away from high grade limestone as the main feedback, and that's an important element.

00:08:44: And then on top of that you combine with fact we can use existing cement production technology.

00:08:55: That doesn't sound like innovation but it is in one sense because in a world where investment into the cement space So if you can leverage existing assets, there is actually an opportunity to also create circularity in terms of the assets as such which are very important.

00:09:24: You break chains where production plant no longer coupled with the length of the limestone quarry.

00:09:37: So that's a second important element.

00:09:39: and then thirdly the feedstock itself.

00:09:45: The innovations which allows us to upcycle different types of feedstock, feedstocks can either have no takers at all today or feedstock where it is simply used for landfill in our model as well.

00:10:09: Yeah, because

00:10:11: you're not dependent on sort of one single stream?

00:10:13: You have different opportunities right and different values streams or input streams that you can

00:10:19: exactly.

00:10:20: And I think from my perspective the last one is so important Because it also connects So deeply with a DNA of who we are at submission, and that is circularity.

00:10:34: That's the need for moving away from a linear consumption model where we move away from extracting new minerals or items from across-the-earth into using what's already in circulation.

00:10:50: So all these three aspects give us an opportunity to... In very cost efficient manner At scale deliver a binder or a cement which can compete with what we're using today Both on performance, which is very important.

00:11:12: On usability it's as very conservative value chain and also price

00:11:21: Which I guess equally important in the conservative Industry that well established like i would assume this sort of this.

00:11:29: the surprise point.

00:11:30: that's hard to move.

00:11:32: You wouldn't be able to sell a green premium at all because they would say, look you know maybe a slight one but then your product has to have strong credentials but ultimately it gets.

00:11:43: concrete and cement are products being used as a commodity.

00:11:51: There's no real consumer value in it, so ultimately who pays for that green premium?

00:11:55: So what you're saying is they are really important to drop-in solution.

00:12:00: It's circular and competes on quality and price with the existing solutions.

00:12:06: Those are strong levers compared to the status quo of the

00:12:10: market.".

00:12:14: I would say especially looking at, I mean just from a macroeconomic perspective.

00:12:25: we've had a period of there you know negative interest rates.

00:12:28: money is basically free.

00:12:30: Green premiums it's not an issue into more realistic macroeconomics environment in the sense that money connected with the cost.

00:12:44: so really, I think made it very difficult for some companies whose business model is more dependent on a green premium.

00:12:57: And the grain transition needs to happen but will only If it needs to be sustainable, the green transition is to be sustainable not only from a climate perspective but also for my financial perspective.

00:13:20: Yeah if the business model is dependent on a Green Premium It's not sustainable in long run either right?

00:13:25: So you might have a sustainable product But I don't have a Sustainable Business Model.

00:13:29: so You're absolutely right.

00:13:30: i think Planning that Right From The Start of Getting That Right From the Start Is Important In Order For You To Scale And Ultimately Survive and harsher market conditions that are outside of your control.

00:13:43: even so.

00:13:44: I think what you're reflecting upon there is also good, the macro environment has shifted for many or all companies in sector And the ones who are able to navigate them, other ones that have built resilience into their business model in a sense.

00:13:59: That you're not dependent on the external factors that much You can still scale it and still have good product and independent from sort of outside factors contributing either one or another direction.

00:14:13: Exactly I agree with that.

00:14:18: One follow-up question though because explained this really well, sort of what was needed or where the innovations lie.

00:14:28: My question would be why you?

00:14:29: So were it with the core founders team who are sort of the innovators' insights?

00:14:37: Why were they able to identify those processes and not someone else?

00:14:42: that'd be something I'll be interested

00:14:44: in?".

00:14:53: The main bulk of the technical team and innovators, Klaas & Paul.

00:14:59: they are coming with a significant experience from industry.

00:15:05: So... They could very early identify what actual pain points to get market acceptance on what we want do And then based out those pain points they tailor-made the innovations.

00:15:25: So, then the question is well there are a number of fantastic innovations on the binder side.

00:15:33: some will succeed and others probably have less successful future.

00:15:39: but I do think that understanding from where industry it's so massive its conservative has special type logic.

00:15:51: It's really important for how you then look at the potential of innovations.

00:16:02: And a number other innovations that we see, they are more coming from an academic perspective and will have their place but probably in longer time until it is at scale.

00:16:17: And I think then what you look at, but the industry is doing.

00:16:20: they are more focused on how can we protect our existing business model?

00:16:25: They've sunk so much cost into their assets that have sunk.

00:16:28: So much costs into their limestone quarry and they're earning so much from gate fees from burning waste That the answer for them is given in the sense that it's more about sort of carbon capture and storage.

00:16:46: So they haven't really been forced to look at innovations in the same way.

00:16:50: And on our perspective was more, okay with that said how do we create circularity?

00:16:56: Looking at a sustainability principle and doing back casting from them where did you want it be?

00:17:03: gives us an answer too.

00:17:05: How should act today?

00:17:06: yeah I guess You're also making It Really easy for Them To make That change right.

00:17:11: i think you explained as well to say Look There sort of locked in both physically where they are, but also from the cost perspective.

00:17:20: There's no real room to manoeuvres.

00:17:23: is this solution that you bring to the table needs to make sense financially and it needs to meet them literally In a physical location when there aren't conscious suggests something That's coming out thin air It needs to fit right into existing processes for then say right?

00:17:42: That's an innovation.

00:17:43: Again, in the conservative industry that's moving slow.

00:17:46: That's not prone to adapt sort of an agile mindset and say yeah Of course I'm open to something completely new.

00:17:53: This is i think exactly where you're coming In a way providing A good approach.

00:17:58: Yeah And some of these things You really have To Have Good Answer On Is At The outset Very Complex

00:18:10: Maybe

00:18:12: looks more boring than sort of the pure innovation stage.

00:18:16: And that is for example, well if you're producing a bulk product one of the core questions to have an answer too how do we get it into customer in cost efficient manner?

00:18:29: So this cement business itself is very dependent on logistical aspects and How do you have an?

00:18:40: what's your answer to that?

00:18:42: That can make or break your business model because the logistics is such a big part of your cost base.

00:18:50: And those aspects are perhaps, You always want to talk about innovations and how did it get to see two reductions?

00:18:56: I think that so important that there's this starting point without...that does nothing.

00:19:02: but then the obvious question Okay, you're having this fantastic innovation.

00:19:06: You are having these fantastic production method but how do we get the product to the customer?

00:19:10: To decide where the force is happening?

00:19:13: that's equally critical in one way and

00:19:17: I think actually for market adoption even more critical right like here.

00:19:22: i think your absolutely right that instead of talking to investors receiving funds to start a company selling division sort super important to get the conversation started.

00:19:34: But for the industry who actually has to buy from you, I'm sure they buy into the vision.

00:19:40: yes there's something that we're all after but the operation questions are so much more important because they can't afford that their operations aren't being disrupted Because You're not able To deliver defeat stock in time For The process because They Are dependent on delivering product and producing.

00:19:54: So i would argue That those From the outset boring operational nitty gritty details other ones that make the difference between a very successful enterprise and one that's just selling a lofty vision.

00:20:08: I agree with that, i think you're absolutely spot on.

00:20:13: Following up... Who are your main customer groups?

00:20:19: And maybe talk more about the partnerships we've already established.

00:20:23: I saw Wattenfell as one of their names out there.

00:20:27: so let me know what you have in market.

00:20:31: So when you look at the value chain, it is a complex value chain.

00:20:41: And that is a term we probably often hear about different types of industries.

00:20:45: but in the construction and build world The end customer are real estate developers for example.

00:20:55: they don't typically buy cement themselves But their very keen on getting a building or, for our project done with a certain CO₂ profile.

00:21:06: And then in the middle you have general contractors and then you have sub-suppliers and you might even have subsupplies of the subsuppliers that are actually dealing uh...with purchasing the cement um ...and this is just one example!

00:21:23: You also have the prefab sector which is obviously slightly different.

00:21:28: but what we targeting and the partnerships that we have gone after in the first place is looking at end customers.

00:21:37: And I think, quite unusual for how industry has worked in the past.

00:21:44: but they are also ones who are driving the CO-II missions with targets on Scope three, Scope two or Scope one.

00:21:55: so ultimately they're going to end up with whatever you're building.

00:22:01: So that's how we have thought about it, and one example of those partnerships is for example Wattenfall who end customers or a wind turbine foundation onshore wind farms.

00:22:14: but they are also driving the change in their value chain.

00:22:19: from there perspective

00:22:22: What you're saying basically is to create this pull effect in the value chain, right?

00:22:25: Because targeting the end customers means they have then demands.

00:22:30: In terms of the quality of materials that are after or specifications thereafter and thereby putting it down into people who actually buy input material from

00:22:42: them.

00:22:43: Exactly, you word it much better than I did.

00:22:46: Well i'm just trying to rephrase that was your thinking when you do it?

00:22:50: It's an easier task to reward something someone smart has put out there!

00:22:56: You're absolutely right.

00:22:57: how about the push and pull in a market?

00:23:00: as mentioned earlier this is so much of a commodities market they are not really used.

00:23:09: You could almost put it like one of the innovations, The fourth innovation is perhaps a contract structure.

00:23:16: How you actually make this happen?

00:23:20: So I think that's one good example how we work with Wattenfahl and they have been very adamant on getting these in place... ...how to create the pull into their part-of-their value chain.

00:23:35: That's really important.

00:23:36: Taking the leap

00:23:38: Yeah, and reflecting upon that how far would you say?

00:23:43: You have come in sort of.

00:23:45: Well shaking up is probably the wrong term but rethinking it's a nicer way off looking at it.

00:23:52: The industry where which he said are you on some visions journey into big mission that use head out to be beginning of our conversation today.

00:24:02: It's a massive market so when we're looking at our journey to scale or production It is sizable from many aspects in numerical terms, but considering the size of market it feels like we're hardly making a dent.

00:24:26: We are experiencing very good commercial traction and I think that's why we have been able to produce a sizable amount in not only a demo plant, which we have but also together with the partner.

00:24:45: And this is very much a business of trust and I guess any businesses are business of Trust.

00:24:51: But here's customers.

00:24:52: they want to try before They buy.

00:24:55: Does it smell taste?

00:24:58: Feel like what you're using today?

00:25:00: if so their willing To have conversation on buying The product.

00:25:04: So we spent the last year, I think we did close to thirty demos and tests with a whole range of customers.

00:25:14: That's first step.

00:25:15: then second is engaging in commercial terms for how that specific deal could be structured.

00:25:26: We will see more coming from our from that part of submission in the coming month, we're extremely excited right

00:25:36: now.

00:25:36: Exciting yeah and is that traction?

00:25:38: And sort of what you just described?

00:25:40: also I guess because you need the physical infrastructure again for your former life in Vintec.

00:25:47: it's a lot easier to scale different markets than geographies.

00:25:50: if its only sort of DUI that might need an update on language able I don't know.

00:25:58: The Dachar region to the Nordics in overnight by now, which is a lot more difficult for industries that you're tackling.

00:26:07: so how do you look at your main focus?

00:26:11: Sweden or the Nordic right now... How do we look at those markets?

00:26:15: because also just mentioned it's big and sizeable.

00:26:18: So where do you see some vision from now on?

00:26:22: then going forward

00:26:25: You dig where you stand And the main majority of our team is located in Stockholm and Sweden.

00:26:35: So that's where we have a number of very important commercial partnerships, but then we also have colleagues now in the UK as one example... ...where it's a sizable market with lots of customers who are keen on decarbonising.

00:26:52: Then I think Northern Europe is an obvious answer!

00:26:57: That's how we think about it at least.

00:26:59: And then you build out in a reasonable pace, but where do we create the market demand?

00:27:08: How to see that?

00:27:10: Where are we finding production and looking for logistics?

00:27:14: I think there is those three aspects coming together which ultimately gives us an answer on how our markets over time will grow

00:27:23: sort of also reflecting upon I guess Nordic startups, especially in the climate space over the last years.

00:27:30: You don't want to overpace either right?

00:27:33: you want to make sure that your able because you mentioned it's a business of trust like any businesses absolutely and i would add to that certain industries are even more conservative than others.

00:27:45: most are not prone to change.

00:27:48: but then there is certain ones case.

00:27:54: it's super important that you're able to deliver on the promises and sort of.

00:28:00: then this next steps, so for from outside I would argue can't be in a hundred fifty countries by tomorrow.

00:28:14: It is rather in one market and then replicate it because you've proven yourself.

00:28:21: And those additional conversations will be a lot easier, faster and so on.

00:28:25: You'll be able to accelerate speed but its' because of the good work that you delivered for example in Sweden.

00:28:33: We had this conversation internally with our team several years ago where we concluded... ...that the right answer is precisely how do outline it?

00:28:47: We do a few things at the same time and we try to do them very, Very well.

00:28:51: Yeah And we don't believe in having fifteen plants on three different continents.

00:28:59: It will.

00:29:00: then you will compromise some quality Exactly.

00:29:03: Then you would lose track of what you need To Do.

00:29:06: You Will Lose Track Of Costs And Customers And What Not

00:29:11: Trust In Reputation Ultimately Which Makes it A Lot Harder successfully scale up going forward.

00:29:17: And then you're hitting sort of that ceiling, it leads to almost a negative feedback loop.

00:29:24: You know your compromising on quality which means you are compromising ultimately client relationships and trust there... Which impacts your revenues?

00:29:34: Which makes even harder to raise new capital as well.

00:29:37: so out of the sudden in this negative feedback loops most companies than struggle to get

00:29:46: precisely what you outline.

00:29:47: and when you are interacting with investors at least a few years ago they sort of questioned that logic.

00:29:57: A lot of investors, um... They want to see hockey stick curves which very steep all the numbers looking fantastic.

00:30:06: And I think as financial environment and markets have changed now that is more reasonable and more sustainable as well.

00:30:21: That type of behavior, it's more rewarded than very high risk taking a few years ago... I think that's an interesting point you're making.

00:30:32: Which naturally brings me to something that happened a few weeks back.

00:30:38: Bill Gates in Stockholm, so tell us how was that?

00:30:41: How is meeting Bill Gates?

00:30:43: because obviously he's one of the most influential figures we have both from a capital point-of-view with his investment vehicle but also I would argue an intellectual point of view.

00:30:57: He continues to shape the debate around contribute to mitigating and adapting to climate change, so be interested.

00:31:08: To hear your thoughts on how it was meeting him?

00:31:12: It's quite a thing... ...to meet Tim and have our conversation with him about what we're doing, what we've achieved… …and also his view in general of the climate change and cement construction space.

00:31:30: The background is that two and a half years ago, one of his vehicles Breakthrough Energy funded and supported SanVision.

00:31:43: That was very important because it basically fast-tracked rocket fuel our R&D for several years

00:31:49: right

00:31:51: so that was the background.

00:31:54: when he came to Stockholm from another event we had opportunity what we have achieved thanks much to his funding and I think he's a very curious person asking a lot of questions.

00:32:10: He has so much data in his head, an economic realist that doesn't believe in green premiums which is important.

00:32:23: on the other hand it also such an extreme techno-optimism.

00:32:28: So it was sort of, you know when we came away from... We had the opportunity to meet him a couple times during his visit to Stockholm.

00:32:37: And our head were spinning afterwards because so many thoughts and his reflections are very different perspective on things.

00:32:49: That was great experience!

00:32:51: Also an achievement for us as team.

00:32:54: Tell us here's look

00:32:56: Yeah, it's a great recognition right to say look you know Bill Gates uh comes to us talk.

00:33:00: so as I think that's a strong testament of what he built.

00:33:03: When we closed our last fundraise two years ago We made hard hats for the entire team As a way to celebrate And we did one hard hat for our secret team member Bill Gates and we had name tags on each Of them.

00:33:25: colleague of mine, when we had this opportunity said you have to bring the hard hat to him.

00:33:30: And so we did as well and he took a heart hat in his sign that I'm going back there has been great sort of

00:33:38: great trophy almost it's a

00:33:39: trophy is sort of an attribute too To the team on what was their entire team as a vision has been able to achieve?

00:33:46: And i think You know That brings us also two sort Of beginning of our conversation division because I feel those Moments in a startup life.

00:33:59: Especially in hard sectors like your industry, they don't come that often right and I think the way you just described it is as perfect.

00:34:08: when you need to celebrate those wins.

00:34:11: an audit also take keep going into see progress.

00:34:14: but you've made i think its beautiful moment at me that he had this hard heads.

00:34:18: win them.

00:34:20: we close the funding round then you know kept one with Bill Gates name on And now you have a signed version in your office going forward.

00:34:27: I think that's the perfect way to say, look two years later again we fit the milestones.

00:34:32: We've come further and that fuels us going forward.

00:34:36: Yeah for sure it is i think For any startup journey as you said The road That You tread Is not.

00:34:50: It's not sometimes clear.

00:34:52: You have to navigate and sometimes you don't have a map, there are so many setbacks along the development.

00:34:59: really taking opportunity to celebrate small wins as much big wins is very important And then you learn mistakes

00:35:10: Absolutely.

00:35:14: What is it that keeps you going?

00:35:15: Because I still continue to reflect upon what he said earlier about your former life in fintech, where again for example.

00:35:23: You have so much more data right...you see the custom adaption so clearly especially when you work on apps and see whats working or not.. you're able to iterate.... you are able to ship new versions in a very fast manner.

00:35:35: And all of this from my perspective having worked with the digital environment as well sort gratification almost to say, look it's working or not.

00:35:46: It tells you based on the data very clearly as well.

00:35:54: this speed of innovation those are two things that I'm really motivating.

00:35:58: and now we're both in industries where change is slow.

00:36:02: yes We just talked about the wins but again The fundraise was three years ago And now two year later we get this.

00:36:08: then Take some time to scale up in other markets as well.

00:36:13: So while all of this isn't a plan, it will still take sometime and we know both now that the climate crisis is sort of looming and glooming in the background.

00:36:22: so you know what?

00:36:23: That's not really helping us either.

00:36:25: how do you Not lose hope?

00:36:28: or positively phrase was it?

00:36:30: What is it that keeps you going and sort of motivated to get up every morning to say look another day at Sam vision Let's go I'm ready.

00:36:39: So we talk about this from time to time in the company as well.

00:36:45: We're not doing it because its easy, but really hard and all of us what you have on your team at one common denominator is really the urge to solve difficult problems that are extremely rewarding.

00:37:04: It's tough Sometimes it's more tears and blood than laughs, but ultimately on the bottom line.

00:37:13: The reward is so much bigger And I think that's there.

00:37:17: That's the answer.

00:37:18: It's not much more then that this just a hard Damn problem.

00:37:23: We're doing everything we can to solve it.

00:37:33: You're absolutely right.

00:37:33: It doesn't have to be easy and some things aren't easy, but there's a lot of value in motivation.

00:37:40: you can get out of those hard tasks and feeling that your contributing because obviously see the proof but it is working.

00:37:48: so if you run into something now sort-of its just a metro for rolling this out again sounds easier said than done.

00:37:56: But

00:37:57: at one moment I feel like you are realizing oh!

00:38:00: So things are clicking they falling into place, it's starting to work in the big picture that we described a while back is now coming to fruition and to real life.

00:38:09: And I feel this momentum where you understand... You get to see there ...and you get to reap those fruits.

00:38:19: then the plants that you've flowered they get to read the benefits that you were putting into the soil before.

00:38:29: For sure, yeah.

00:38:30: And then there are curveballs on top of everything else and that's just the name of game.

00:38:39: Oscar this was a really enlightening and motivating conversation.

00:38:42: thank you so much for making time fingers crossed at the scale up journey continues with as little curve balls as possible.

00:38:52: While there might be some, you know fingers crossed that all goes smoothly.

00:38:55: I'll be following your progress and maybe we will do this conversation in a few years from now to see where you've landed?

00:39:02: And how many more hats Bill Gates has signed or what else have he assigned given the year future successes at BHCTC.

00:39:10: Thank You so much Jan for hosting me.

00:39:11: it was a pleasure.