Daniel Bloch - Iron Energy

00:00:01: Welcome to the Rooted in Change podcast.

00:00:05: Hey everyone, my name is Janne and you're listening To The Rooted In Change Podcast.

00:00:08: This show features European clinic champions And their solutions to tackle the climate crisis.

00:00:12: Today's guest Daniel co-founded Iron Energy.

00:00:16: Storing renewable energy such as electricity or green hydrogen Is still one of the biggest challenges in the energy transition?

00:00:23: It's the core of iron energies approach.

00:00:25: they use the steam iron process so it hydrogen reacting with iron oxide to lock the energy into the ion.

00:00:33: This results in a solid and safe stage, throwing the energy indefinitely and releasing the injected hydrogen on demand simply by

00:00:39: esteem.".

00:00:40: We'll find out how exactly that works down just a few minutes!

00:00:44: Welcome!

00:00:58: But I'm also like, I would describe myself as a very kind person.

00:01:04: And driven by curiosity.

00:01:06: so my background is actually having...I am not an engineer although i work at a deep depth company and have My background.

00:01:15: both academic and Work experience are in finance.

00:01:20: So I studied at the University of St Gallen Corporate Finance.

00:01:24: Then worked for almost four years But I had actually touchpoints with science, so i used to study for one year at ETH.

00:01:32: That's how I got my co-founder.

00:01:35: See this would have been the next question.

00:01:36: So How does a finance guy end up in a deep tech company?

00:01:39: And maybe it is really helpful For Deep Tech companies To have that financial person Right from the start.

00:01:46: but It might be an unusual journey.

00:01:50: You just mentioned.

00:01:51: you met your Co-Founders At ETH...So..How was his journey as team?

00:01:56: Yeah, I mean...I was always driven by science.

00:01:59: So also in high school my major was in biology and chemistry.

00:02:02: so kind of like the logic next step for university was studying something in this field!

00:02:07: So i went then to the ETH And there I met Samuel The founder & developer of the technology.

00:02:14: But after a year I realized that's way more smarter people who do math sometimes ten times better than me I don't know, it was just more...I just felt a drive in the finance.

00:02:32: And we were happy as well with studying.

00:02:35: and yeah although like our academic way split we stayed friends.

00:02:39: We met couple of times.

00:02:42: then i was at my master's and someone reached out to me asking if he wanted to join Iron Energy but found his startup with him.

00:02:51: First thought hey super fun!

00:02:53: But on second though I have no idea about hydrogen, right?

00:02:58: Have no idea what chemical engineering neither about the market.

00:03:02: So we agreed to like hey i'm just gonna write my master thesis in the field more Like a market analyzes

00:03:10: Yes research to see all the trends that drivers on

00:03:15: Exactly and I mean worst case are.

00:03:17: I have a master thesis and best case people be business partners as well.

00:03:21: end.

00:03:22: While I did my analysis, i realized that there's a huge potential opportunity and yeah.

00:03:28: I talked with my fiancee And uh...I took the leap and thought maybe it is going to be once of life opportunity.

00:03:37: quickly we are Yes!

00:03:40: Joined Iron Energy.

00:03:42: Well what an exciting journey.

00:03:44: as you mentioned Samuel and technology already I tried to give a summary of what it is that you guys at Iron Energy do.

00:03:51: So maybe correct my, my summary or sort of give us the full picture?

00:03:56: You mentioned hydrogen...I mentioned storage.

00:03:59: so maybe complete this picture for us.

00:04:01: What Is The Core Innovation That You Bring To The Market?

00:04:04: So our core innovation is actually how to store the hydrogen or in general, energy for a very long time.

00:04:10: And the problem means like.

00:04:11: I think there's many long duration energy storage technologies but the term long-term is not defined.

00:04:18: Many people understand as long-terms even if you hours right?

00:04:22: Is that sort of

00:04:23: exactly yeah?

00:04:24: Yeah Maybe already i don't know we will touch on it But redox batteries they claim themselves They do Long Term But they can't stop at like fifty hours, maybe a hundred hours.

00:04:36: And that's where we start.

00:04:38: so when you do long actually sometimes even use ultra-long duration and she starts to restart from one hundred hours all too theoretically undefined how have said but I mean want also make revenue.

00:04:51: the business case is mostly in seasonal.

00:04:54: So thats what we do.

00:04:59: So if the storage is at the core of innovation, how does it work?

00:05:05: What was Samuel's invention or scientific breakthrough that he discovered led to you guys teaming up and forming Iron Energy.

00:05:18: The idea for the steam iron process actually wasn't a new one.

00:05:22: It was invented in the nineteen hundreds by Master Schmidt because the problem was there that they needed for the industrialization high pure hydrogen.

00:05:34: And they realized the cave are, but they didn't had really.

00:05:37: I mean electrolytes were already like invented by the promise They didn't have electricity enough.

00:05:44: But some smart people realize a cave through rock of iron into this steam vessel That i receive Hydrogen High Pure Hydrogen.

00:05:56: But they also realized you could like loop it but he was not really needed because in the end, this kind of technology or process got forgotten.

00:06:05: And so we call it in German Dr.

00:06:09: Pappi.

00:06:10: during someone's PhD his responsible professor is also advisor at UN and back then when I was a little bit earlier was started, he quickly realized hey if we decarbonize the power supply.

00:06:30: We will run into an issue due to weather dependency of the renewables right?

00:06:35: And then he kind of like started the research.

00:06:40: okay how do we store energy for very long time?

00:06:44: and what a chemical engineer is doing?

00:06:46: it takes his periodic table looks ok but a molecule, and it's kind of like.

00:06:55: the most obvious option is hydrogen.

00:06:58: The next big problem is how do I store the hydrogen?

00:07:02: Also that i can start in an economical way because theoretically I could also just put it in pressurized vessel but its super expensive if need to store vast amount of energy.

00:07:13: so you went through the periodic system table on your last fuck.

00:07:16: hydrogen is reacting basically with everything what was abundant as well cheap.

00:07:22: And the solution they came up with is iron.

00:07:28: So basically, iron oxide.

00:07:31: and then they did research.

00:07:33: it means sounds super simple.

00:07:35: you let hydrogen react with iron oxide You get water and iron.

00:07:40: If we want to get the hydrogen out again you let iron react with steam so vaporized water Then you can get hydrogen out Again.

00:07:47: Super Simple.

00:07:48: We always call it like rust and de-rust of iron but actually cycle is not so easy.

00:07:54: Well, first of all the material is expanding and compressing again.

00:07:57: then you don't want to have like a surface that doesn't want damage from materials.

00:08:02: on this there's lot of big questionnaires.

00:08:04: basically we are only company in world who figure out how to solve that right?

00:08:09: So if I paraphrase what he just said it's basically the core innovation as much process itself because that existed hundred years ago when people People knew about it, and then they got forgotten as you mentioned.

00:08:23: But the core innovation is probably there more... The processes around the actual...

00:08:31: No, how to run a process?

00:08:32: That's right!

00:08:33: How to run the process properly?

00:08:35: I mean There are lots of parameters that need to be considered And we know perfectly.

00:08:40: so we can use non-doped material.

00:08:42: For anyone who isn't familiar with what's non-doped materials

00:08:45: non dope materials, basically I can use straight iron oxide from the mine or like iron ore.

00:08:50: I don't need to dope it in sense of need to go to the lab changed in sort of a way so i can read just use get dirt we say

00:09:01: and that then ultimately leads too.

00:09:07: how does your solution come?

00:09:09: To the market?

00:09:09: is there container?

00:09:11: what's their vision for how to package that process.

00:09:15: So we are in touch now on our core technologies based is the storage.

00:09:19: And but as Iron Energy, how we commercialize this technology?

00:09:23: We bring to decline actually a whole system.

00:09:25: so we do the conversion from power to hydrogen with an electrolyzer and we store it and then we also transform the hydrogen again to power heat whatever you need with a fuel cell which will purchase some third parties.

00:09:40: Yeah, sorry.

00:09:43: I was wondering then also what are the applications?

00:09:46: because you know in my intro and i framed it as a hydrogen storage

00:09:51: yeah

00:09:52: play but You just mentioned?

00:09:54: It's more of that whole value change.

00:09:56: So I think what you're saying is where we can store abundant renewable energy Which ever form that has and we can use it in whichever form is needed afterwards.

00:10:05: right start at correct assumption

00:10:08: Basically, but I will touch on it later.

00:10:09: So maybe first to the first question.

00:10:11: so how does he look like?

00:10:13: So imagine It's not a product in sense of that.

00:10:17: that on I need to start over.

00:10:19: We do large utility-scaled systems meaning that it's not A few megawatt hours or our customers are most likely utilities or renewable energy developers who are requiring gigawatt hours of storage.

00:10:38: You can imagine when we talk about these sizes, it's like the storage itself is like silos.

00:10:43: you place there then you have one forty foot container which is the balance of plant where our process is run in it and then you to additional forty-foot containers which contains the electrolyzer and fuel cell.

00:10:56: so because of the sizes we are operating in, everything is project-based.

00:11:05: So it's not that you have a catalogue of brochure and your order that... Of course we have our standardized or modular components but its very depending what the customer needs on their... What they're actually doing with our storages?

00:11:20: Because to the second question, the application is wide!

00:11:25: We didn't even know for how many applications are actually even as of interest for our customers and, right?

00:11:31: How did they use the storage in the end.

00:11:36: Maybe give us a bit more background there sort what could be potential applications or where do you see the interests from your customers come from?

00:11:46: So underlying problem for our customer.

00:11:50: There's two underlying problems.

00:11:53: either they have surplus power They don't know what to with it But this can be a lot of customer base.

00:11:58: So we have waste insertion plans, they could be that you are wind farm operator solar park You're just the local utility who has river River plants or have so much solar that it's being feed into the net as various customer segments.

00:12:14: and The second application is that use somehow need to store Hydrogen As safe as possible and as cheap as possible.

00:12:23: And the application there could be for example backup.

00:12:26: So we have customer project where it's a data center and they need backup systems.

00:12:32: They want to decarbonize them, so that will use our system.

00:12:38: or there is also another customer who are doing ammonia production because they produce green ammonia which can only be produced when there is renewable energy.

00:12:52: but you cannot just turn off turn on an ammonia plant.

00:12:54: this is like not possible so you need constant blow off of hydrogen.

00:12:59: So basically they use our storage as a buffer, the core application to store hydrogen.

00:13:05: it's cheap and safe because there are such vast amounts of hydrogen if you would store in pressurized vessels.

00:13:12: or it's funny that alternative will be produce ammonia which the plant is obviously doing, but it's so much compliance issues and headaches that they rather store a hydrogen with our system than ammonia.

00:13:25: They actually produce on site.

00:13:27: Interesting I didn't know this But yeah That's really good inside where regulation comes in And sort of the fastest route to market also for companies The easiest way to maneuver regulations there.

00:13:42: It's something...it's I guess most listeners don't really think about either.

00:13:47: Because maybe to quickly explain as well for the listeners, how does it actually look like our system?

00:13:54: So you need imagine that somehow a power supply regardless of what is now.

00:13:58: and then we produce hydrogen which is gas And blow this gas into a vessel filled with iron oxide.

00:14:11: So everyone understands.

00:14:12: This hydrogen reacts with the rust, and it basically de-rusts the rust that reduces its to iron again.

00:14:21: And the side product is water.

00:14:26: We do this for charging.

00:14:27: It's a charging cycle.

00:14:28: When you want to get the hydrogen out of the energy we blow into the vessel, we blow steam Water vaporized.

00:14:37: The steam is basically rusting against the iron And you get as the main product, hydrogen again out and oxygen.

00:14:48: That's how you have understanding of the looping.

00:14:51: So it really just like a vessel filled with solid dirt.

00:15:00: And if we talk about gigawatt hours, like multiple tons of hydrogen.

00:15:06: This would be impossible to imagine.

00:15:08: having this somewhere stored in a pressurized system and for us just the container which has hot iron laying around?

00:15:16: Yeah right that makes it all a whole lot sense!

00:15:19: I touched upon this at the beginning.

00:15:21: i think is always comes up especially with you mentioned different categories long duration energy storage.

00:15:29: Yeah, you know the system's efficiency.

00:15:33: If I understood it correctly from information that i have your systems is highly efficient right because its sort of the chemical process which basically means The energy that you put in.

00:15:43: It's the energy That You get out again Which Is not always the case with other forms Of storing hydrogen or even energy Right?

00:15:50: There s Always a loss In transforming the energy From one state to another Or from for example renewables into Hydrogen.

00:15:57: How do you look at that?

00:15:59: as of course our efficiency is lower than a battery.

00:16:02: The problem we do chemical, chemically it's always low-efficiency.

00:16:06: So when you look at the whole system from power to power so if you have power in and out again We talk about forty percent efficiency.

00:16:14: Sixty percent is lost mostly as heat not the full sixty, because if you would also use the heat.

00:16:21: Because a lot of like access to waste is heat then we have an efficiency in the whole system off eighty percent.

00:16:26: actually that's what most of our customers are using.

00:16:29: they also used it the excess heat.

00:16:31: They have a district heating they like just infuse the heat because It's Not Heat.

00:16:35: We talk about like thirty degrees its ninety degrees heat.

00:16:38: so high valuable heat.

00:16:40: So compared like eighty percent is pretty strong yes but If You Just Look At The Power Line Obviously, because you have conversions.

00:16:47: You would have losses of then an efficiency off the forty percent around trip efficiency.

00:16:53: Then again I think your business case is also that just storing in energy that it otherwise be lost

00:17:00: Or has

00:17:02: zero value

00:17:03: That's what our customers see and thats why we barely get actually a question Of the Efficiency Because for them its A Zero Input There Is No Value.

00:17:12: Yeah i Think Its For Me Just Always.

00:17:13: That Question Comes Up From The the public side, and you know that people are interested in right how efficient is your process.

00:17:19: That's why I wanted to bring it into the table as well And i'm gonna move on a bit more to the commercial side of things.

00:17:26: so we talked about How does the technology look?

00:17:29: How has it been stored?

00:17:30: um What our potential applications got all of this.

00:17:35: So let's talk about the commercial traction that.

00:17:38: yet I read that he raised funding earlier this year with that new funding big plans, right?

00:17:43: So I think the first step now is a demonstrator.

00:17:48: Is that exactly what they read and which has planned for this year?

00:17:52: And then there's a first commercial project i think two years down the road.

00:17:56: twenty eight if I remember correctly

00:17:58: Exactly.

00:17:58: Tell us you know these numbers and figures better than I do.

00:18:01: so tell us about uh The next big commercial steps for you.

00:18:05: What's the plan to scale up

00:18:09: To go into the market, our final milestone will be to finalize commissioning the demo plant.

00:18:16: It'll be commissioned in Germany closest to this border and it's a twenty megawatt hour with storage capacity of twenty megawatts hours at full E-certified plant And what we use for is to validate lifetime.

00:18:33: It's not a commercial unit because the balance of plants, so balance of plant decides how quickly do I charge?

00:18:38: and discharge is completely over dimensioned in order that we can do to fifty cycles in one-and-a-half years.

00:18:45: As you remember with long duration energy storage So depends on plan is too oversized.

00:18:49: But we can then do fifty cycles if it was seasonal case which would be fifty years And we can show hey The material is not breaking down everything what we promised our customers holding.

00:19:00: because I mean, if you do a long-duration entry storage.

00:19:03: If you have an amortization time of...I don't know, thirty years or twenty five years the customer wants to have a certain reliance that his machine doesn't break down right?

00:19:14: That's basically what we're doing with this demo plant.

00:19:16: Right.

00:19:16: so it is that element of trust and de-risking the investment for any future customer To say look everything that we are saying Is actually holding up in

00:19:25: Exactly So.

00:19:27: then the bands off plan is actually factor ten bigger.

00:19:31: So it's for two hundred megawatt hours, but we the storage is only twenty megawatts.

00:19:35: And to commercial traction We have a lighthouse project in Switzerland with data center operator.

00:19:43: It will be commissioned Twenty-twenty eight.

00:19:48: it should be built already.

00:19:52: What I can say as of today about it Is that?

00:19:56: The application?

00:19:58: there's various applications because I'm going use up four.

00:20:01: First is for just backup.

00:20:02: Backup systems, because if you have today mostly back up to do with HBO or we've diesel diesel engines and did You know that?

00:20:11: Do basically use the diesel every year Because Diesel has a as A lifetime And If you cannot store it forever It's getting too old.

00:20:21: So you Have To Basically Use It Completely Empty Every Year.

00:20:25: That'S A Lot Of Costs And Our Storage Would Not Be Cost-Competitive To Just Use For Back Up to diesel.

00:20:32: But what they also use it for is, are going to participate in the reserve market and they're doing some arbitrage meanwhile with it.

00:20:42: so basically most of our customers do stack a lot revenue streams within their storage systems this project.

00:20:51: then we have another project that's not gonna be on this continent.

00:21:00: It's the ammonia plant producer.

00:21:01: already was touched on.

00:21:04: They they build a huge ammonia plant factory and they need A cheap way to store vast amounts of hydrogen.

00:21:11: That's what they're gonna do with our system.

00:21:13: And then we have other Project in pipelines.

00:21:17: where are you doing right now feasibility studies?

00:21:19: So it's waste insulation plant.

00:21:21: also here in Switzerland, they have a lot of problems.

00:21:25: trash more or less is like comes like frequently.

00:21:29: But the power consumption has also volatility, right?

00:21:32: So the problem is they have like too much power.

00:21:34: They don't know what to do with it.

00:21:37: Also there's another project we are working on for... It's a local utility team that wants to use the storage for stabilization and another application is Waste Water Treatment Plant.

00:21:53: so they also need backup.

00:21:56: The fun fact is that one of our site products, it's oxygen.

00:22:01: And they need oxygen in their treatment

00:22:05: and the process.

00:22:05: now interesting quite a versatile customer profile

00:22:10: group.

00:22:11: Yes,

00:22:11: yes needs but really exciting to see.

00:22:15: I want to touch upon something that you mentioned when we talked about the customers which is the different revenue streams and how they're being stacked on top of each other.

00:22:27: Does your background in finance help you with delivering that commercial traction as well?

00:22:34: Because I feel most hardware companies have more or less one revenue stream, instead for the potential customers there's only use case where You use a company as an energy, you sell our product and it serves one purpose at the customer side.

00:22:51: Maybe there's two I feel in your case And he just mentioned this right like so they spit back out.

00:22:56: There is how to store and additional power that is cannot be used.

00:23:01: How do?

00:23:04: Deal with volatility in terms of energy demand or energy supply?

00:23:09: This the oxygen as a side product.

00:23:11: He mentioned the regulatory case for the ammonia producer.

00:23:14: answer on the other things.

00:23:16: So many different value pools that you can tap into and I feel this becomes a lot harder to sell but A lot more exciting as well.

00:23:24: if your list might be where?

00:23:25: Your finance background comes in today.

00:23:27: look This is not so much an engineer problem anymore because the John energy is sound at.

00:23:31: That works.

00:23:31: Well, it becomes a case of how do we package this in the best possible way for our customers To understand that and see Where they can tip into these value pools make there's really attractive business proposition For them as well.

00:23:44: How do you look at that?

00:23:46: Also my finance hard thing is like super, super cool.

00:23:49: I would also say our engineers somewhere it's all so super cool because he sees okay these are All the excess we have.

00:23:56: how could you use?

00:23:57: It and actually We learn together with the customers Because some stuff we know at the customer Don't know.

00:24:02: And sometimes to customers when we're in this meeting they see Like but wait i Have here a network to degree connection or i have just close by i have A cement factory who Could like Use the hydrogen So i don't need To burn the hydrogen fuel cell, I could also directly.

00:24:17: So it's like super fun in the commercial perspective.

00:24:22: but VCs or investors especially VCs they hated

00:24:26: because

00:24:29: imagine you're lazy.

00:24:32: They want a super easy more case on.

00:24:33: just give me one.

00:24:34: what is your target customer profile?

00:24:37: And there is a lot and well But it's super It's super fun to use learn so much

00:24:45: And I think it's interesting because obviously is.

00:24:48: It's not as straightforward, you know?

00:24:49: I mentioned this as well.

00:24:50: its quite a versatile customer profile.

00:24:54: But i would argue and I guess there's also what he will tell the VCs.

00:24:58: You know This Is Not All X in One Biscuit but this is rather we can tap into so many different geographies So Many Different Industries To sell this and to scale, you know We'll have a lot more market opportunity than just saying enough where?

00:25:16: A long duration energy storage for and we need to be in certain geographies right especially with hydrogen.

00:25:21: Often it's the case also that you need infrastructure around it And so on.

00:25:24: Yes

00:25:25: all of that not the case

00:25:27: view.

00:25:27: I understand.

00:25:28: You know form from all these BC courses finance courses They always like say don't be too opportunistic he will lose yourself.

00:25:37: but i understand the core idea of like, don't be too opportunistic is if you need then to adapt your product or technology a lot.

00:25:44: While for us it's minimum adaptations that anyway have do because its such big project It doesn't change alot from the technologies side but From the sales side I can very quickly have huge customer pool.

00:25:59: Thats why as well i could address a

00:26:02: huge market.

00:26:04: Yeah really good points.

00:26:06: And I mean we talked about this perspective, but maybe to make it really clear for the listeners again.

00:26:12: We talked about The Timeline.

00:26:13: so when on twenty six were talking by twenty eight what is the plan?

00:26:16: For the next three two five years if i work To say this from the outside and then Again correct me It's you know You're gonna do the demonstrator This year.

00:26:25: its the commercial first commercial full commercial project in Two Years down the road Yes.

00:26:31: And then you continue going from strength to strength and just sell, scale.

00:26:35: is that the right assumption?

00:26:38: Basically or it's like I would say Like You said this year finalizing the demo plans.

00:26:44: Then in twenty-twenty eight we have first commercial Lighthouse project.

00:26:49: We had twenty nineteen second commercial light house with ammonia producer.

00:26:54: This something where you always work parallel on it.

00:26:58: Parallel to that, we try to just understand all the different customer segments better in terms of what any way you have do is feasibility studies.

00:27:09: You see which customer segment's interest for us today and let them work together out with their feasibility study switch hopefully then will end up in a project sales.

00:27:21: In the end off I would say like if your look now five years into future I mean, I'm hoping that we are like a very going to be pretty good established SME Switzerland based.

00:27:37: We have built up a pretty good qualified team and we have projects in our pipeline too which is not providing us any fear of okay can you survive or not?

00:27:53: because the thing as well what i love about the sector we're working at, We don't have like a product you just purchase.

00:28:03: You know that...we don't need to have an inventory or something.

00:28:05: We are project based means our business model is highly bankable.

00:28:10: so if I know okay i have a credit limit because of days off outstanding stays of worst case sixty days.

00:28:17: But you anyway, try to like match as close as possible because you don't order until the customer says okay let's do gu for a project.

00:28:25: I can go to a bank and be like hey this is credit limit i need to purchase these goods.

00:28:29: And here's the project.

00:28:30: it's not...I now have to order five hundred machines and hopefully sell them in the future You know?

00:28:37: Yeah that's really beautiful.

00:28:39: we've actually had a lot of conversations over last weeks where InHOT were.

00:28:45: It's always what was the chicken egg situation with you know, your very project based.

00:28:50: but sometimes people want to ramp up their production in order to meet anticipated future demand.

00:28:57: And if that demand then doesn't come in it is a real issue.

00:29:00: because he invested all of that capex into equipment and inventory.

00:29:06: Yes!

00:29:06: That can really pose an issue for the company than bleeding cash all of a sudden, having to look into more drastic measures how to manage that situation.

00:29:19: Yeah and I mean in the end i'm like it...I know that my uh somewhere the founder he doesn't like but again we're actually an engineering company because we don't hold a factory or whatever right?

00:29:30: We just have sort of intellectual property!

00:29:35: And we have our partners and suppliers, who work with closely.

00:29:38: Yeah!

00:29:38: I guess it doesn't make sense for you to extend that value chain or sort of broaden out vertically horizontally in the sense... Ah so not

00:29:48: as off-the-day enough?

00:29:49: ...to do more of an

00:29:49: in-house because your equipment is probably relatively standard on off the rack.

00:29:56: It's how to run a process you mentioned before rather than reinventing technology.

00:30:04: Exactly, I mean you see there's a lot of hardware companies who have to do that basically because they need the components.

00:30:12: They don't exist today on the market.

00:30:13: and it is also like what I fell in love about with technology when someone pitched it to me everything we need is already on the markets.

00:30:24: We just know how to run our process but all the components where needed are existing already.

00:30:30: Yeah And again should love because it minimizes the risk as well, right?

00:30:34: It's ultimately more a an execution game rather than a technology and risk again.

00:30:44: I think we're not a VC case though.

00:30:46: I don't know if they don't like.

00:30:48: how was

00:30:48: that feedback in the first round that you raised?

00:30:51: I mean is relative to small one as far.

00:30:54: so remember but VCs.

00:30:57: It was not a VCs.

00:30:58: First, it was an Angel and the other one is a strategic partner who gave us money.

00:31:06: And we were last year talking with a lot of VCs.

00:31:08: We just realized that at least once you talked to them they didn't speak the same language as what we do.

00:31:20: That's kind of something I also want to encourage.

00:31:22: Maybe i don't know whose listening here But i know alot of founders.

00:31:25: they get the push of like, what is your exit strategy or whatever?

00:31:29: And we know that.

00:31:30: We don't have a straight exit strategy and then it's okay because honestly if the company runs well I could see myself getting old in this company even if the companies going to be worth I dunno hundred millions for whatever.

00:31:42: i Don't say I don't see a reason to like sell it Because why you know I love would do.

00:31:49: The whole team loves What They're Doing have no organic growth and not the growth what a lot of VCs proclaim you know like quick, quick scale.

00:31:59: And then one mistake in your company is bankrupt.

00:32:02: but if we do it organically.

00:32:04: It's basically the fundamental

00:32:07: business huh?

00:32:08: Yes Then I'd rather be an SME for either now fifteen twenty years But Have a healthy balance sheet and not always tipping on the edge.

00:32:18: You know

00:32:18: yeah We did a workshop, we got it couple of weeks ago where were supposed to exactly that question.

00:32:25: because someone was saying like I want to raise money from disease and i told the person basically.

00:32:29: Don't think you should cause.

00:32:30: he comes with that money although It feels like they huge freedom right out of then You have cash on your bank account that can use

00:32:38: yeah?

00:32:39: He

00:32:39: comes for the price tag in.

00:32:40: that price tag is often growth an expectation And also the expectation For whatever form of exit relatively short amount of time.

00:32:51: And if you can't fulfill that, well let's gonna pose issues.

00:32:54: and I don't think in his particular case... ...I can see it is going to work out well!

00:33:01: You might just mention this but maybe your not a VC case?

00:33:04: That totally fine because then you could go another way and still build an important impactful business But with the growth ambitions the stress that comes with it to, you know do the reporting.

00:33:20: Do the board meetings and so on?

00:33:22: And every fund has a life expectancy!

00:33:24: So I think we are super... If if uh we require external funding i think we're pretty perfect angel investor case.

00:33:33: who just loves what you're doing and things like..I-I think what these dudes are doing they're cool dudes.

00:33:38: I believe in what they're doing.

00:33:39: let's go for it and have a long breath.

00:33:42: yeah

00:33:43: well and Aminta bring this probably perfectly to my last question because we were just so reflecting upon the different journeys that one can take.

00:33:52: And before starting recording, I guess you mentioned Korean finance or your sort of love for finance especially coming out of Switzerland against the blueprint working in financial industry.

00:34:07: and yet he chose a different journey into work now on startup soon-to be an SME.

00:34:12: And why is that?

00:34:15: What makes you get up in the morning and say, look iron energy instead of a very comfortable good life at in the finance sector as large bank or whatever else might be.

00:34:26: In Switzerland

00:34:28: I think

00:34:28: this life

00:34:30: was super cool about Iron Energy being part of our energies.

00:34:33: first default off course like your company and of course India want to do revenue on profit but Indian we're also doing something impactful.

00:34:41: so I would say like, every morning and waking up to save... To make the world a bit cleaner.

00:34:47: And while making money of course we're not an NGO or MPO.

00:34:52: Of course We still want to make revenue but The underlying reason is speed-up.

00:35:03: decarbonization Actually makes it even possible Because we strongly believe without ultra long duration energy storage decarbonization will hit an edge and we already see it actually today a bit.

00:35:15: So storage is required, I'm not saying that only our stores need storage across all timelines.

00:35:22: so short-duration storages.

00:35:25: what's going on in the battery market?

00:35:28: It's booming.

00:35:29: people understood we need batteries but also realizing hey we have now very short duration.

00:35:36: energy markets are saturated.

00:35:37: We solved these peaks But we have now the second problem of this seasonality.

00:35:44: And yeah, I think that's kind like what's inspiring me.

00:35:50: and of course it super cool to be your own boss!

00:35:52: Yeah right?

00:35:56: Maybe people underestimate that freedom that comes with it.

00:35:59: you know It is a lot.

00:36:00: responsibility because again being on both also means You can work pretty much All the time if you wanted.

00:36:08: yes, there's no one telling me to stop and maybe apart from your other team in this but You know that it comes With a price or that?

00:36:17: That's the price tag of being an entrepreneur.

00:36:19: And at the same time It allows you to combine different passions and be doing when we want do the work.

00:36:26: I guess here ultimately benefiting If things go really well.

00:36:31: and he mentioned this right like why would I sell company that is strong SME that I like, the work is what i like.

00:36:39: Like my colleagues because we're friends and so on.

00:36:41: maybe that's the perfect setup for me.

00:36:42: or if it was a recipe of happy life?

00:36:46: Yeah!

00:36:46: Maybe... Or.. For me.

00:36:48: maybe you know I don't want to call everyone but

00:36:51: this is also the goal of podcast right?

00:36:52: It shows sort of whats possible And ultimately where our conversation ended.

00:36:57: today.

00:36:58: You gave really good insight into your journey why you chose certain ways in which can be an inspiration wanted to do something similar or say, look this is not the path that I want to go down.

00:37:13: This also totally fine but then at least they've reflected on this journey and think it's what conversation today was about.

00:37:21: It was super fun!

00:37:22: Was my first podcast?

00:37:23: Had a lot of fun today.

00:37:24: thanks for being here.

00:37:25: You did great.

00:37:25: thank

00:37:25: you so much Diana for taking time and lovely to have your honor.

00:37:28: Then i'm wishing all the best in energy too.

00:37:31: make sure those scale up plans go well

00:37:34: Perfect Well.

00:37:35: Thanks For Having Me.