William Ramsay - Sixteen44

00:00:01: Welcome to the Rooted in Change

00:00:04: podcast.

00:00:05: Hey everyone, my name is Jan and you're listening to The Root In Change Podcasts.

00:00:08: This show features European climate change champions And their solutions to tackle the climate crisis.

00:00:13: Today's guest is William co-founder.

00:00:14: at sixteen forty four Now when we think about climate change We most of the time think about CO two But there are obviously other gases with an even higher global warming potential like methane.

00:00:27: Stopping these emissions when the gas is too spread out to simply catch and burn, it's a massive challenge for global climate efforts.

00:00:35: And that's exactly what's sixteen forty four tackling.

00:00:38: instead of relying on traditional methods that only work on highly concentrated leaks they use a unique technology to safely break down the gas right at the source.

00:00:46: we'll learn more about the technology and find out how exactly this works with William in just a few minutes.

00:00:51: welcome

00:00:53: thank you young good uh great to be here.

00:00:56: Well, it's a pleasure to have you here.

00:00:59: Let's get started with the very easy and simple question now before we dive into this whole topic of methane removal breaking down and breaking up that gas.

00:01:09: I want to know bit more about use.

00:01:11: so why don't you introduce yourself too?

00:01:13: The audience and listeners

00:01:15: Yeah, yeah, certainly Hello everyone.

00:01:18: So my name is William and originally from Canada but although it's been a little while since I've lived there, quite technical.

00:01:29: So very technical background have a PhD in chemistry from the University of Cambridge and worked in academia for actually four couple years also at The University of Oxford And after let's say good stint in academia wanted to Have my research have a little bit more applicable approach and be a little more industrial.

00:01:52: so I swapped over not necessarily to the dark side, but it's up to the industrial side and actually started with starting in startups.

00:02:03: So I started then a startup in California in Santa Barbara working out there for a little while And then I moved to Switzerland and was working at a clean tech company where I was the CTO about six years And just last year, I had started sixteen forty four specifically to look at removing methane.

00:02:31: Right?

00:02:31: What an interesting journey.

00:02:33: is there anything since you moved around quite a bit from Canada to the UK to the US and then to Switzerland?

00:02:41: Is there any thing in particular stood out for?

00:02:44: maybe startup culture or in terms of bringing innovation from that academic world, or from academia.

00:02:53: And then to you call it the dark side I would rather say applying research to make an impact on the.

00:03:00: well what's your taken out?

00:03:02: Yeah they're yeah.

00:03:03: so i've been fortunate to experience a bit of different kind of cultures and countries.

00:03:11: There is definitely like a bit of difference between US and specifically on the West Coast versus European startup.

00:03:24: Europe has, it's little more subdued but I always find that American approach as a cheerleader very hype.

00:03:38: But ambition is big And I appreciate that and it's very easy to kind of get swept up into this.

00:03:46: Europe is a little bit more calm, a little more reserved but usually backed by something quite in depth.

00:03:56: so the difference working at the start was within also the different expectations or mentality of investors which has been quite big change too.

00:04:07: And then talking about big ambition, you know now with sixteen forty four.

00:04:11: You follow also quite a bit condition and try to solve for really big problem which is methane removal.

00:04:17: I tried to give the full picture in the beginning of the intro but maybe you want to reduce the problem that year trying to solve once more from your perspective?

00:04:26: Yeah yeah it's been working in methane for several years always interested by the, you know when you have that dinner party chats about methane and these type of things they say.

00:04:46: several years ago it was very much like oh what is methane then?

00:04:51: why do work on this?

00:04:53: And what's the point.

00:04:54: It has been interesting to see how over the years this changed a little bit people starting okay.

00:05:02: I've heard of methane at least But I started looking into this some years ago.

00:05:09: And this is a little bit during the hike days of direct air capture and carbon capture, all those aspects.

00:05:19: You look at global warming as a whole when you look at the contributions to it.

00:05:25: Of course, a lot produced from human activities.

00:05:32: carbon, which is carbon dioxide over the years.

00:05:37: But I don't think that everyone forgot.

00:05:40: but it's like when you actually look at the contribution to global warming from these greenhouse gases, methane is driving about thirty percent of that global warming and its a big chunk.

00:05:55: And you can compare methane And it's actually, is much more potent than CO₂.

00:06:03: So over a twenty-year time frame that's actually its eighty times stronger.

00:06:07: so... That means when you release one ton of methane into the air It's equivalent to releasing eighty tons of CO₀.

00:06:18: and um.. When people start to kind of grasp that they say okay wow thats an

00:06:23: issue right?

00:06:24: Yeah it has an effect!

00:06:28: Over the years, as you know with a different let's say energy supply.

00:06:31: throughout the world.

00:06:33: There's lots of countries.

00:06:34: Lots of industries that are looking at adopting natural gas.

00:06:38: and then I throw You know The major component to natural gases is actually methane.

00:06:43: And so Now you start to have more More knowledge in and more data To show that you know?

00:06:50: That use of natural gas is released with you know associated With release of methane and see how this it's like.

00:06:55: okay This this is a bit of a problem.

00:06:58: And so yeah, we looked into methane and by removing it how can be impactful?

00:07:09: I think that's another subtle point about methane... It doesn't stay in the atmosphere actually as long as CO₂ but only lasts there for ten to twelve years.

00:07:23: If you really target methane and looking at that removal, the reduction You can have a very immediate impact on climate change.

00:07:31: And actually we're talking kind of decades.

00:07:36: When you consider that everyone's looking for little bit of silver bullet to solve climate change It is not going quite be your silver bullet but it will help.

00:07:47: Yeah I think were all looking One solution potentially to you know, bring down emissions tomorrow.

00:07:54: And I guess what you're saying is that if it might not be tomorrow but the impact will be very tangible because of the impact that methane has instead of removing that hasn't as a direct effect on sort of well combating and fighting climate change trade?

00:08:12: Yeah yeah you know, I look at this in a bit of a holistic picture too.

00:08:17: So i'm not saying it's like okay everyone just stop doing CO two and we just go one hundred percent on

00:08:22: methane.".

00:08:23: And that was like no-no... You gotta look at everything.

00:08:27: so CO to work has been going well over the last couple decades and it still needs to do that and we still need to draw that carbon out.

00:08:38: but now there are opportunities Both zero to and nothing so that we have.

00:08:44: We can see the effects within a couple of decades as opposed to next couple centuries, getcha?

00:08:50: And you know now we talk to define what we explained.

00:08:53: problem.

00:08:54: let's turn through this solution.

00:08:56: How do you actually remove that methane?

00:08:59: And keep in mind, as I mentioned before.

00:09:00: You have a very technical background so try to explain it for someone who doesn't have the same technical expertise and probably most of our listeners are not experts on the methane removal space either.

00:09:14: So sort of layman terms but maybe an advanced version.

00:09:22: my family understands what I do so they, everyone can understand.

00:09:29: So let's say in terms of you know... What did we actually do?

00:09:32: And again the food focus.

00:09:33: that is a little bit on all the problem.

00:09:36: You know.. We looked at all different industries which release methane into air and this comes from agriculture.

00:09:45: Cows actually burp a lot of methane which a lot of people seem to think it comes from the other end, but no.

00:09:51: A lot of methane from cows actually come from burping and you have the entire waste management field as well.

00:10:00: so you have landfills in wastewater treatment.

00:10:03: effectively anything that has organic matter that's decomposing ends up releasing methane.

00:10:11: And then of course you've got the entire kind of oil and gas sector, anything from processing producing this as methane releases.

00:10:22: There's one common aspect amongst all these different industries is that the methanes generally released into the air at fairly low concentrations.

00:10:31: so it means its pretty diffuse, spread out And that means it's very challenging to actually be able to do something about this.

00:10:46: In addition, the fact that its ambient conditions so just whatever is on a temperature outside... That's a big challenge and we looked at different kind of state-of-the art what people were working on.

00:11:01: like I said i've been working in this for few years able to actually remove those methane emissions that are at ambient conditions and they're actually pretty diffuse.

00:11:16: So it's not the most sexy looking technology or anything like this, its very much a filtration system.

00:11:26: so we have these large reactors ,these large boxes.

00:11:31: we push air that has methane through it, and as the air goes though.

00:11:39: We have a process actually breaks down into stories of nothing

00:11:45: right?

00:11:46: And secret source I guess then is in that specific process because or maybe two-fold thing.

00:11:53: one you are able to do this at three things may be even low concentrations, but then also higher concentrations.

00:12:03: Secondly that you don't need high temperatures.

00:12:06: and the third thing is sort of that process that he just described actually... The first two are maybe preconditions leading to the fact we're able to destroy the methane would be a fair assessment?

00:12:21: Yeah yeah that's right!

00:12:22: And I think this one thing where people kind of expect us like oh don't capture the methane.

00:12:30: And to be honest, if I could capture that at those low concentrations.

00:12:34: That would love do it up but there is.

00:12:38: we haven't found anything that's actually able to do that.

00:12:41: and you know There are some other projects where when the concentration methane is super high Where?

00:12:46: You can capture so you know biogas recovery from landfills as a good example.

00:12:51: But like i said A lot of times The concentration just too low and so it's a little bit to say, okay well you know what are you actually doing then?

00:13:01: And methane has this one nice chemical aspect that you can actually destroy.

00:13:07: This is actually where we take the manager.

00:13:09: if we break down that methane at least then it's removed from the environment.

00:13:16: Yeah and thereby also global warming potential a lot less, right?

00:13:23: I read in preparation for today that it's ninety-seven percent less.

00:13:28: Is that

00:13:28: correct?

00:13:30: Yeah yeah so the process of removing the methane is an overall ninety seven percent reduction and its global warming potential.

00:13:40: That just comes from the fact.

00:13:44: In

00:13:51: leading up to the explanation of your technology, you mentioned cows releasing methane.

00:13:57: But I assume that agriculture and the white cows are only one potential application.

00:14:06: where can methane removal sit?

00:14:09: Because when we think about direct acupuncture... You mentioned this before.

00:14:13: sort it's that general space drawing down emissions with with filtration systems.

00:14:20: Similarly, like other Swiss companies have pioneered maybe in that space as well and there it's often sort of.

00:14:28: you know remote locations needs a lot of energy.

00:14:30: That doesn't seem to be the case With your technology.

00:14:34: so I guess for you You can co-locate with whatever emits methane.

00:14:41: There is no fair assumption.

00:14:43: Yep Yeah yeah thats right.

00:14:44: And now we look at.

00:14:48: And so actually, you know what?

00:14:49: One of the things we use is satellites.

00:14:53: There's lots and lots of publicly available data now which has come out in last couple years from all these satellites that are rolling around on Earth just measuring greenhouse gases.

00:15:06: So you measure methane You measure CO too.

00:15:10: These used to

00:15:12: be behind

00:15:12: a lot very expensive paywalls.

00:15:16: companies had the revenues to be able pay and they actually track some of their assets.

00:15:23: But now it's more a publicly available tool, so this is where everyone starts being terrified because you have these what are called plumes?

00:15:35: You can really see that its like cloud coming out from those sources.

00:15:41: we're not talking about little clouds but something that spreads over kilometers and you can actually see, you know... You could zoom in to a dairy farm.

00:15:50: And let's say that you wouldn't even know what it is.

00:15:52: but when you look at them they are like wow there was a lot of methane!

00:15:57: Then on maps people were like oh yeah there's a dairy farmer here!

00:16:00: Of course if you've got anything or the gas infrastructure as an easy one then its just this giant cloud of methane drifting!

00:16:11: It looks probably coming from over here.

00:16:14: And then I think the last one is landfills.

00:16:17: Landfills just to give you a bit of frame-of reference here, landfill can generate anywhere from five thousand to fifty thousand tons of methane every single year and so it's a massive amount.

00:16:29: So these methane clouds actually that you see are released.

00:16:35: Yeah i think you start seeing some more newspapers.

00:16:38: everyone starts being a little more freaked out by this.

00:16:43: It's interesting how this advent of satellite technology has raised our awareness for the issue, because it feels like from last year a lot more of these Earth monitoring startups have emerged.

00:17:05: And you know, because it's become a lot more affordable to shoot up satellites into space and the costs both also then of equipment has gone down.

00:17:18: So out-of-a-send You have all this data available that I guess wasn't really well.

00:17:22: maybe was available but not at the same not the same amount of data.

00:17:27: And, as you explained before it was gated behind very expensive paywalls that were just a limit for people being able to access this data.

00:17:36: and now we're super aware of the issue.

00:17:39: everyone basically can have look at where methane emissions are taking place?

00:17:45: The next step is what do we about them?

00:17:48: because I guess there's going.

00:17:55: Emissions are system inherent.

00:17:57: You can't really fix the process, then you need something else in order to combat those emissions right?

00:18:03: Yep yeah very true.

00:18:07: well and let's talk once more about sixteen forty four.

00:18:10: so now we understood the technology.

00:18:12: We understood what the problem and technology Now we understand sort of applications aswell.

00:18:18: Then where are you on this journey?

00:18:21: Because he mentioned your sort of a serial entrepreneur.

00:18:23: You know, we worked in here and started with the CTO before.

00:18:26: now at sixteen forty four is your newest venture as people like to say Sort of.

00:18:31: what were you on on this tourney in terms of scale up any?

00:18:35: how far have you come?

00:18:37: yeah We really got via the sixing forty-four going going last year.

00:18:41: so an early stages but making good progress.

00:18:47: We've done some early demonstrations of the tech, been able to show that it's working.

00:18:54: And now we're actually looking and starting deployment of the Tech into the field.

00:19:03: We have a couple projects that are looking actually at installing the tech, actually in dairy farms.

00:19:09: Nice!

00:19:09: So I'm actually looking to see how this... So

00:19:11: cows do make another appearance here?

00:19:13: Cows

00:19:13: hundred percent make an appearance.

00:19:15: you know there's where this is today.

00:19:16: it has about one point five billion cows on the planet and its That's an

00:19:22: incredible number.

00:19:23: yeah And when your end?

00:19:24: so and actually most as saying just to give you feeling if one cow generates around five hundred grams of methane every single day.

00:19:34: and so yeah, it doesn't take you much to do the gut question.

00:19:40: You're like oh wow that's a lot of methane!

00:19:42: That again is one species amongst other ones among other industries... So yeah in terms of process we are working working, I'm starting in actually is learning Switzerland and studying Europe.

00:20:01: But we're also looking into projects around the world to so looking at the US another places of North America.

00:20:12: And just because we haven't captured that part your story yet?

00:20:16: What's what's the business model behind sixteen forty four?

00:20:19: Because Is it as with direct a capture that you know they think ultimately sell the carbon credits but he could also be other businesses in sort of the energy efficiency space.

00:20:32: I guess they would argue that you sell the equipment and it does their removal, so how does that work for you?

00:20:40: It's a good question.

00:20:42: we have different models and I'd say for different industries too.

00:20:48: One...I'll tell you about one where looking into And this is, you can for cows.

00:20:56: But again the dairy or agriculture industry since these projects are a little bit smaller.

00:21:03: we look actually on an individual farm basis.

00:21:07: We allow anyone and everyone to invest into these methane removal project.

00:21:14: so it means that average person can actually invest.

00:21:24: But what that does is actually it pays for the equipment, and pays for operating it.

00:21:30: And we take also a portion of that investment and share directly with farmers.

00:21:37: So if you're investing into this project You end up reducing emissions and help local agriculture.

00:21:48: That's something people you know, like to participate in.

00:21:52: And it's something that is very tangible.

00:21:55: so... You can actually show us this farm a little bit away from you and see how its making an impact.

00:22:06: We verify the methane removal So we have also credits associated here.

00:22:13: Yes, another aspect of our business as well is we work in the voluntary carbon markets.

00:22:21: So removing methane is very similar to actually removing CO-II.

00:22:28: that does generate a credit and can go into a voluntary carbon market where you have larger organizations buying and trading and retiring these credits

00:22:42: Right.

00:22:43: And I guess for those, you know Microsoft and others have been heavily supporting the voluntary cover markets in the past by buying those credits?

00:22:51: Yeah yeah but they think we'll leave Microsoft off that list.

00:22:55: unfortunately

00:23:02: it's an interesting ecosystem to be into sort of see how especially software hyperscale is.

00:23:10: I'm also thinking of Stripe.

00:23:11: And we're thinking sort of others in that field have supported a very different, very tech heavy industry into and very hardware-heavy to actually remove carbons That also come from there.

00:23:28: quite or yeah In order to meet they are quite aggressive net zero pledges.

00:23:33: So it's an interesting ecosystem where two very different tech worlds, meet and shape sort of.

00:23:40: or is it a jointly shaped our future?

00:23:43: Yeah.

00:23:46: It has been really nice over the last years to see you have all these industries are acknowledged that these emissions and they're really actually doing something to do something about it.

00:23:58: And gives me hope.

00:24:03: right I will get to that part also in a few minutes, but before we go there.

00:24:15: What's your vision for the future then?

00:24:22: Pilots in Switzerland also targeting them sort of further international projects, but if you know what's the maybe both near term and longer-term?

00:24:32: What's your vision for that company especially as you're tackling such an imminent important issue.

00:24:39: And yet You are a bit older than years company.

00:24:43: so I guess there is this both those very long time scales at play But on short-term scales, things happen incredibly fast.

00:24:53: I guess you make progress every day.

00:24:55: so what does that look like?

00:24:57: Yeah this is always naturally a bit ambitious but then i've worked in particularly with hardware over the last several years.

00:25:06: So I always have to temper this also reality.

00:25:11: But we have a specific goal in the company that within kind of ten years by twenty, thirty-five is to be removing one million tons of methane every year.

00:25:28: It's funny.

00:25:28: on one side it sounds like a lot but when you're looking at how much methane has actually released over You're starting to make a dent, but you still got ways to go.

00:25:46: And then some people are like it's not that much and other people say its a lot.

00:25:51: But we have a staged approach.

00:25:55: We don't expect to do one million tons tomorrow.

00:25:59: We start with one ton method removal this year and that goes up to ten tons, then a hundred tons in the thousand tons.

00:26:06: And we grow like

00:26:08: this."

00:26:08: Right?

00:26:09: Um...and

00:26:09: do you think it's a feasible way of being able to achieve this whilst not being too blue-sky

00:26:18: here?".

00:26:20: Yeah I guess it needs both right?

00:26:22: It needs this moonshot ambition in order to have the long term goal in mind at same time especially with hardware.

00:26:31: You can't scale from zero two a million tons today.

00:26:35: And I mean, we all want to but also know that it's not reality?

00:26:39: Yeah yeah agreed.

00:26:40: What do you see as the biggest challenge on that scale up journey with sort of what is holding back if you are able say so at

00:26:50: the end of day always comes down to capital and i would love be able go order thousand systems.

00:27:01: It needs money to do so.

00:27:08: Like I said a little bit before, there's some growing concern and growing knowledge about methane contribution in global warming.

00:27:18: but you know, to try and make the next step into doing something actionable about it.

00:27:25: We're starting to see a bit more of this but would be good to even more.

00:27:29: I think once we start getting this will help with attraction.

00:27:36: Capital means that your actively looking to raise money or what's your plan there?

00:27:43: Yeah, yeah.

00:27:44: Of course us and every other startup we actually

00:27:49: launched.

00:27:49: maybe you should also make it to the list of my standard questions?

00:27:52: The answer is always yes!

00:27:54: Yes but where... We actually launched a crowdfunding just the other week on platform that's called Republic Europe.

00:28:05: so if you look for sixteen forty four in Republic Europe he'll be able And we open this to the public because, you know.

00:28:14: We have a lot of support now and everyone thinks what we're doing is worth doing when we thought that we would give the opportunity for Everyone.

00:28:24: actually let's say I haven't had a piece at The company.

00:28:27: so your investment actually goes into direct equity in the company?

00:28:32: And i guess crowdfunding I mean crowdfunding.

00:28:33: for me still it be always bit if an unusual way Can I take business or maybe guess in general businesses to fund themselves?

00:28:41: But the The nice part is sort of that immediate feedback on that immediate And traction.

00:28:48: me you translated as, you know if you give money.

00:28:51: You get equity and with a company but also With you know sometimes IC cases out there and If we see your so has investment like i really don't get it.

00:29:01: Like i don't understand the business model i don' t understand the company the team and so.

00:29:06: But I guess with crowdfunding it's sort of that support, right?

00:29:08: Like people buy into your mission and are able to put down the money for... For the company.

00:29:14: And i guess its also faster because as is down to every single individual To make their decision It doesn't need those long investment committee cycles.

00:29:25: You know like we'll get back in six months.

00:29:27: We're still a bit too early on some but Its now In time to act just now.

00:29:32: Yeah exactly We also, yeah we have that mentality as well.

00:29:37: It's uh you know...we want to be removing methane and lots of it now not in a couple months next year like just as fast- as fast as we can move right now.

00:29:47: That's really our goal

00:29:49: Gotcha.

00:29:50: Well, good luck with the crowdfunding.

00:29:52: fingers crossed on that and then I mentioned before That i would ask you the final question here we are And so Maybe it brings us even back to the beginning of the conversation where we reflected a bit on your entrepreneurial journey?

00:30:09: Your personal journeys while having lived in different countries and have seen different startup environments more comfortable way of living, I guess then what you're choosing right now in terms if we mentioned the start-of life in the US and he mentioned that you live in Switzerland.

00:30:30: Now And your work at an early stage started red its risk filled.

00:30:35: it's sort of.

00:30:37: It's a lot of work Um Its very hands on.

00:30:40: for now i know You following?

00:30:42: That sort of big vision and big mission.

00:30:44: but there is A There would be an alternative somewhere out there especially with PhD and sort of the academic background that you have.

00:30:54: And yet, you've chosen this is a question that it points down to for me as what?

00:30:58: Is It That Keeps You Going In?

00:31:00: That Makes You Get Up in The Morning?

00:31:01: Say Look at Another Day That Spent At Sixteen Forty-Four To Five Times Change.

00:31:06: What Does That Intrude Seek Motivation?

00:31:08: Oh...that's

00:31:10: another very good Question!

00:31:11: In terms Of A Driver I'd say there was always a little bit of craziness aspect.

00:31:17: But You know, I always look at the... you can see like climate curves or he looks at trends and from industrial revolution this is average temperature.

00:31:32: Everyone sees these same curves.

00:31:33: they keep exponentially going upwards And it's been doing that for a long time now.

00:31:44: what I would love to see, and i'd say that this is a bit of my driver.

00:31:50: To actually see these curves start you would say first bend.

00:31:54: so instead of just constantly going straight upwards it's to actually see them come down And even just the bend in their curve and they're like okay then they'll actually start coming down.

00:32:08: If I can if I could see those sometime you know, at least I can hopefully say that i made a contribution to something that was a lot bigger than myself.

00:32:22: That's one of my big drivers!

00:32:25: Of course we're supposed to go to Mars in a couple years here but I do associate with this feeling and say well let's make Earth really a good place

00:32:42: Right.

00:32:43: Yeah, right?

00:32:44: And I guess what he described really well is both that sense of urgency and the sense of impact because you're right there's a bit... Well for me it's always that doomsday scenario where we look at those curves in CO₂ emissions and methane emissions and parts per million of CO₀ concentration on the atmosphere like why are things moving in the right direction if we've invested all this money technology, we have it available with direct ekeptions on yet sort of the emissions go up and maybe they rise at a slower pace but you know still in increase.

00:33:25: And then having a technology that basically today can contribute to global warming first slowing down I guess it's a really great motivation to keep going on that journey.

00:33:41: You're right, Mars for me can wait!

00:33:45: It's something i'm particularly interested in.

00:33:47: and do you see the interest from my society?

00:33:52: scientific point of view that people want to go there, but I'll stay here.

00:33:56: So for me as a sort-of it's A It'd be great if i can continue living a nice life here and not having to suffer from too strong consequences of climate change.

00:34:05: so yeah For the for that...I need you!

00:34:07: So keep on doing what you do And bring technology to Michael As soon as he can.

00:34:12: That is my ask.

00:34:14: Good,

00:34:15: well we will do our best.

00:34:17: Thank

00:34:17: you!

00:34:17: Well thanks William for this very insightful conversation and sharing the details about sixteen-forty four.

00:34:24: fingers crossed.

00:34:25: that all goes according to plan and then we'll be sure to follow your journey All

00:34:29: right.

00:34:29: Thanks very much John.