Magnus Ivarsson - MycoMine

00:00:01: Welcome to the Rooted in Change podcast.

00:00:05: Hey everyone, my name is Janet and you're listening To The Root In Change Podcast.

00:00:08: This show features European clean tech champions And their solutions to tackle climate crisis.

00:00:12: Today's guest is Magnus, CEO & founder of MicroMine.

00:00:16: Managing industrial waste often relies on energy intensive methods So traditional remediation techniques simply transfer pollutants into new waste streams but my mind does this differently.

00:00:28: They harness the natural capabilities of fungi to break down harmful compounds at a molecular level and I think that sounds super intriguing, actually mind-blowing.

00:00:36: so we'll find out how exactly it works with magners in just few minutes.

00:00:40: Welcome!

00:00:40: Thank you very much.

00:00:41: Before we get started and dive into this for me really mind blowing topic

00:00:46: And

00:00:47: obviously learning about technology is the company i want to learn more about you.

00:00:51: So why don't you introduce yourself?

00:00:55: Great, thanks for having me.

00:00:57: So I'm one of the co-founders on Mirko Mein and my background... My personal background is in research.

00:01:04: actually i'm a trained geologist so not the biologists but i've spent the past twenty to twenty five years in research within geobiology.

00:01:15: so my geology colleagues they have basically say that work with biology instead of geology.

00:01:26: But I early on started to work very much with fungi, fossilized fungi from the beginning and then i worked with fungi in deep crusts, in deep ocean floors ,in extreme environments... And slowly i moved into these artificial environments ...and polluted environment so.. ..I would say that sort of idea for mycomine was grown out of that and maybe fifteen years ago we came to the conclusion, why don't you do something more applicable in this science than just writing papers no one reads or a handful of people read.

00:02:10: That is sort of the background for Michael Maynard where he started his project.

00:02:15: Right because I mentioned... You described it beautifully to say, look you have this long experience with fungi and did all of these research.

00:02:26: What was then?

00:02:26: the one or what were they?

00:02:28: One or two groundbreaking things that you found out during your research phase well formed a basis for micromine but also no-one else had.

00:02:37: so there must've been something sort of core some break through that you discovered while doing all those research.

00:02:45: I think The first sort of breakthrough or the seed, all this happened when we were in a metro station here at Stockholm.

00:02:58: A metro station which is a bit unique that it doesn't have concrete on the wall so its like naked rock and there's lots of water running And alot of stuff growing over there.

00:03:10: We did study where basically mapped the life on these rock walls and we found this fungi that encapsulated oil into their cell walls or into themselves.

00:03:25: And basically degraded, uh...the oil!

00:03:28: That's when we sort of came up with idea.

00:03:31: look..this can actually be used in like a more scaled-up environment for more applicable situation.

00:03:42: So that's where we took it from idea to the lab and started to sort of explore this, investigate the potential of fungi.

00:03:52: And I think next step was when my colleague Kristoffer is one of them founders on my command as well basically Lab work or the ground research that we did and started to build prototypes on scale this up too.

00:04:12: To level where it could say okay next thing is to be a big pilot at the client side,

00:04:18: right?

00:04:20: Really steps yeah.

00:04:21: Yeah.

00:04:22: And before we go into that pilot stage I'd been interested in learning more because in the intro obviously mentioned i think it also says on your website there's industrial waste now the core application for the fungi.

00:04:36: And I think you already hinted towards the fact that in Stockholm, You found fungi that encapsulated The oil.

00:04:43: but maybe For listeners That are not super aware of this whole industrial waste space and sort Of the issue that Are associated with Industrial Waste Maybe can explain what's more Sort of how industrial waste is treated right now?

00:04:58: Obviously than the solutions With using Fungi and biological methods.

00:05:03: Yeah, so the type of pollution that we mainly work with which I usually say is hydrocarbon based pollutions but can call them oils for simplicity or different kinds of oils.

00:05:18: So what do you usually do?

00:05:20: What client use to today?

00:05:22: traditional way of treating it is incineration.

00:05:26: So they send it off to a central incineration station where its transformed into CO₂, which is released at atmosphere.

00:05:37: Basically they are transformed in greenhouse gases and this was the whole core or idea basically of finding more sustainable way to treat these pollutions instead turning them.

00:05:56: find a way where we could bring the carbon in these organic pollutions back to natural carbon cycles.

00:06:07: So, our solutions instead transform the oils into biomass.

00:06:13: so in biological process the fungi let's say eat the oils and they grow from that.

00:06:21: this is their food.

00:06:22: the end product is more fungi, so biomass.

00:06:28: So we bind the carbon in this biomass and then the next step would be to either compost it or we can transform into biochar which is a very useful natural product that we use for soil improvement etc.

00:06:51: Basically finding new ways of binding the carbon into a material that can be brought back to or recycled, back to the natural carbon cycles.

00:07:05: Right sort of closes the loop.

00:07:06: right because you ultimately in the beginning said it's hydrocarbons for simplicity oils but then hydrocarbons are carbon-based.

00:07:14: so basically closing the loop of carbon and just storing it in natural materials again.

00:07:23: Exactly, we're closing the loop.

00:07:25: But also I would say that another point or other aspect of this is that... ...the clients who work with today are also transporting their solutions to central stations.

00:07:41: We are working on site treatment which means that we reduce the transportations for our client.

00:07:48: That's one of the CU-II sources that we can actually reduce for our clients.

00:07:54: So it's both very cost effective, but also reducing all the CO-tube emissions from both incineration and transportation.

00:08:05: so...

00:08:06: And I guess on handling everyone would say okay everything comes out of a process will be treated?

00:08:14: But then you know sometimes not the case with your processing which often comes with issues as well is also not an issue anymore, right?

00:08:28: No exactly.

00:08:28: Exactly what comes out of our process?

00:08:30: it's completely clean from the pollutions and its a material that we can use for different uses like biochar for instance.

00:08:43: We're looking into very interesting solution where will be used for biomaterials.

00:08:51: Fungal mycelium is really trendy right now, I would say.

00:08:55: So there's a lot of companies and researchers working with you know making leather and furnitures And basically anything from that.

00:09:05: so we are working together With some people where we and to investigate if We can use it for more like biomaterials For construction or maybe doing acoustic plates insulation, so on.

00:09:19: So I think that is also one aspect that reflects the circularity in this whole process like really closing the loop for these materials.

00:09:32: Yeah interestingly i think... One of my first podcasts ever podcast episodes ever on this show, was around fungi-based materials for the fashion industry.

00:09:46: So even that is somehow a closing in the loop there for me to bring it back from very different perspective because these were not at all too... As you're describing it, For You This Would Be A Bi-Product of The Actual Problem That He's Solving For Them?

00:10:00: That Was The Core Idea!

00:10:02: And so I think its quite interesting how these sectors overlap and interact with each other.

00:10:08: But let's go back to what you mentioned before, because I interrupted at the pilot stage and he also talked already about your customers.

00:10:14: So maybe if we can paint a picture for us bit more on where does technology have been used?

00:10:23: Where does it work?

00:10:26: We have several cases were apply this technology right now.

00:10:37: So basically it was a mine that was used by the Swedish defense sector.

00:10:42: It was fuel storage during the Cold War.

00:10:47: I think they stored seventy thousand cubic meters of airplane fuel there and after the cold war, we emptied it filled up with water from the Baltic but of course there were a lot of other carbons still there.

00:11:02: so I cleaned that water.

00:11:05: We had a treatment plant there for eighteen months and clean the minewater, so that is one example of how we have used it for cleaning water.

00:11:16: another project that we have right now with refinery here in Stockholm where we treat something called acid sludge which is byproducts of oil refining So basically the oil production during decades.

00:11:32: This is an environmental depth that has just been built up, I think in the last fifty years or so...

00:11:39: No one really could tackle it?

00:11:42: No no one can treat this.

00:11:46: It's a very special material.

00:11:49: to be able to incinerate and burn it You have to have specially made ovens with high temperatures costly.

00:12:01: I think the closest place to you two, to incinerate it is in Southern Germany or somewhere.

00:12:08: so You can imagine

00:12:11: Yeah

00:12:13: So we were helping and they refinery now too break down as its sludge on site so that this is a really interesting case.

00:12:21: then i would say maybe The first case where are actually scaling to industrial scales?

00:12:27: We're at the end of these project or this scaling project.

00:12:31: we will be treating about three thousand tons a year of these materials so that's huge.

00:12:40: So I think, these are examples of what we can treat it.

00:12:43: basically everything from polluted water to polluted soils different kinds of solid industrial materials We have worked with municipalities soils from everything of PE-ages, PFAS heavy metals and so on.

00:13:04: So it's quite broad range of different kinds of pollutions we treat.

00:13:08: but I would say that what we have sort established where like a commercialized product now is with the oil based products.

00:13:18: That Is What We Can Handle.

00:13:21: When it comes to heavy metals for instance, I would say its more on an R&D pilot stage.

00:13:28: And PFOS which is... Yeah everyone's talking about PFAS these days and this also On R&D level, I'd say we have worked on it a couple of years.

00:13:43: We have a pilot right now actually where we tried in the more scaled up system In an irrelevant environment.

00:13:50: It works quite well If...we haven't really made it official but i can hint today that we Actually reach Ninety-eight percent degradation of PFOS in these systems.

00:14:03: so That is fantastic But still verifying this.

00:14:09: And when it comes to PFOS you have to be a hundred and ten percent sure that this is really happening, and then like control over all sort of waste streams so... That will take year more maybe to validate but super interesting!

00:14:25: It's very very interesting to see that Fungi are able actually degrade totally break up PFOS which I would say almost the only process we know of that can break down PIFAS at this point.

00:14:43: So, that will be really interesting to follow i think.

00:14:47: Definitely because obviously PIFAs is a very big issue and it's nice to see finally gaining media attention in terms of people knowing its an issue but now also time for solutions launching and then hopefully scaling just out of interest because we haven't really covered that.

00:15:10: I mean, We have understood now the functionality of how technology works.

00:15:16: How can one envision?

00:15:18: And vision-how is it delivered to for example The refinery site in Stockholm?

00:15:22: What's the actual technical setup?

00:15:24: basically container where all that magic happens?

00:15:26: or how does that look at practice?

00:15:29: Yeah have something called microcube, which is a fancy name for container.

00:15:37: So the process is taking place in bioreactors that we build especially designed by rectors and we package them into containers much because it's very practical to do it, it's practical to transport it.

00:15:52: It's also practical scale them up.

00:15:59: It's like a Lego system, basically if we can easily scale to whatever needs our clients have.

00:16:07: so it is like a plug and play system So that the most common way how you provide your solution If they had let us say a water stream or production streams which need to be treated introduce it into our containers and the bio-reactors, and its cleaned windows.

00:16:34: In certain cases like The Refinery for instance we actually have made more of a permanent system on site because this is a project that hopefully will carry on for twenty years or more maybe.

00:16:51: so there we sort left the container based systems a whole permanent system in an industrial complex.

00:17:03: I would say that we always strive to have a standardized product, and can easily transport out our clients.

00:17:13: but also from experience all cases are unique.

00:17:17: you need some modifications.

00:17:19: so yeah... case-by-case project by projects and try to come up with the best solution.

00:17:29: And what was, would you say?

00:17:31: The biggest challenge so far on this journey because again it's sort of what he described as far is that all these research with fungi even then went through dark side to biology have a really deep understanding how the technology works and now you're even branching out its applications from something that, you know, works really well with breaking down hydrocarbons to PFAS.

00:17:58: And other pollutants potentially in the future and exploring them.

00:18:03: And obviously this is a massive undertaking and a mess of challenge that you're solving there.

00:18:08: As he also described.

00:18:09: now with PFAS, we just said look it's going to take another year to validate these so the timescales are relatively long.

00:18:16: in reflecting upon all what's biggest challenges or other challenges?

00:18:23: Yeah I would say that the biggest challenge isn't technical or biological actually client-related issue.

00:18:38: I think we work with a lot of conservative industries like refinery, mining industry.

00:18:47: they're all conservative and the challenge is to get them there.

00:18:52: try something new Where you can't find really like reference cases all the time.

00:19:01: I mean we are building up Yeah, referenced cases that we can sort of build our foundation on but right now for many other clients There's no reference cases to go back too.

00:19:13: so i think The challenge is it's a pedagogical Challenge.

00:19:19: two actually convince them to dare try this new technology.

00:19:26: And it's, we spend a lot of time trying to find the right persons in these organizations.

00:19:34: Persons that are interested but also have the mandate to actually act on... On it sits on a bunch of money To spend.

00:19:45: So I would say is the main challenge Right now.

00:19:50: It's getting easier and easier.

00:19:51: Of course for each case We haven't But still it's still not like an established technique or method, so we're really trying to get this to become the go-to solution in the future.

00:20:07: Sort of the standard?

00:20:09: Yeah exactly!

00:20:11: So that is what we are fighting with every day I would say

00:20:17: And because i feel this topic comes up over and over again In these conversations on the podcast.

00:20:25: Bringing about sustainable solutions.

00:20:28: I think is inherently in.

00:20:31: You're off or you inherently come to work with conservative industries.

00:20:36: that Don't necessarily mean they often nothing know, but the need to change some something.

00:20:41: They don't necessarily no how-to and even if they find your solution interesting from a tech perspective And understand benefits from technological perspective there still might this be this risk a version of Hey, this sounds really great.

00:20:54: I totally see the benefits.

00:20:56: can we Now do this in a few years from now or sort of come back when you have Done customer case A B and C We're gonna be D. so let someone else take the operation risk first.

00:21:08: then once it's really established You know?

00:21:09: We're going to we happily to jump on that train as well.

00:21:12: How do you what your advice?

00:21:14: two other founders another operators in the space.

00:21:16: how do you navigate that challenge?

00:21:17: How'd he bring about that client not-to-be number four, but Adili?

00:21:23: Number one or two.

00:21:27: We have a business model which is sort of adapted to this problem.

00:21:32: I would say so we usually...we're having like a stepwise business model where basically it starts very small downscaled with the lab face where we call biomatching against a couple of different kinds, so fungal isolates to find the most optimal fungi and identify their problems with the pollution.

00:22:02: But basically what I'm trying to say is that we have a stepwise process where you go from quite small commitments then slowly scale this up from prototypes to pilots a full-scale process and that takes years.

00:22:20: I mean this is what we have done with the refinery outside Stockholm.

00:22:25: here, We started with a lab phase And then we will have a pilot.

00:22:29: Then slowly scale these pilots up and up until you're going to reach what hopefully really like industrial needs.

00:22:40: So it's one way because If you do it like that, no one really taking an economical risk.

00:22:48: You have the opportunity to get to know each other and see how he works And I mean i can understand The clients That they are a bit cautious.

00:22:59: We're small company we work with fungi which sounds Really?

00:23:04: Like for out.

00:23:05: everyone thinks of magical mushrooms when They hear about fun guy these days.

00:23:09: yeah So it's we have

00:23:13: the way they are magical mushrooms, right?

00:23:16: Yeah

00:23:17: for branding purposes.

00:23:18: Maybe that some actually something you should use more to just suck people's interest in and make them interested.

00:23:25: new solution through different magic mushrooms

00:23:29: exactly It is another type of Magic.

00:23:31: definitely I also think many People who've seen You know The Last Of Us And so on So They Have Seen There Sort dangerous

00:23:40: side of the puzzle.

00:23:41: Yeah,

00:23:42: exactly.

00:23:43: so I would say yeah that taking it slowly and growing with uh with the clients is at least something that has worked for us.

00:23:52: i would say

00:23:53: right?

00:23:54: I think it's a very good tip to sort of say look keep the risk for for the customers low go step by step but then have a clear plan of how to scale this up into sort of a commercial roadmap because You sort of go from pilot to pilot, but without real scale-up opportunities.

00:24:13: So then you're always staying at the level and they say look it's interesting and so on... And what?

00:24:20: But I think for you really sounds like you've incorporated this bottle right form start with an also clear plan and obvious traction to make these big and impactful within revenues as well.

00:24:34: Yeah, I think it's a good idea and also It gives us.

00:24:37: I mean at least in the beginning it gave us a lot of insight into the client problems because you know coming from academia research And we have sort of developed these systems.

00:24:49: and uh i mean We were very confident that we had something That could change The world Save the World.

00:24:58: Uh...and You Think You Have Like A Genius Idea.

00:25:01: Once you start to talk to clients, you realize that this is not what they're looking for.

00:25:08: This gives them a lot of time and get to know their client especially the industry or problems they actually have and adapt your solution.

00:25:22: so it's... I wouldn't say espionage but At least, you know... You get all the juicy insights that need to be able take it into the market in

00:25:39: a way.

00:25:40: Yeah I'd say this is where we started our conversation.

00:25:45: We needed research on technology level To make sure that actual tech works.

00:25:53: But then i think second phase or maybe parallel Equally important as you've just described is really understanding the customer's problem and oftentimes what we see.

00:26:02: Is that customers are not necessarily interested in the process, how it works instead of?

00:26:10: The magic if I want to say they work behind obviously cool.

00:26:13: often times he worked with engineers there interest into details but what they're interested in sort of doesn't work easily, does it fit into our processes?

00:26:21: Is this a drop-in situation?

00:26:24: do we have downtime and so on which is very different conversation from the technology side or things.

00:26:28: And I think that's where you are getting at as well to say Well We need to mix those sides make sure that they fit perfectly together That we really strong technology On that level solves issues that were setting out to solve at a low cost and consistently with good results, but then also helps our customers to actually bring value in solve the real pain point that they're after.

00:26:56: I think it's an example of what you gave earlier with refinery which could potentially ship their sludge into Germany or south of Germany.

00:27:06: That is solution.

00:27:09: They don't necessarily are looking for another solution But obviously doing this right on site, consistently not having to transport it through three countries.

00:27:19: That's a major benefit and then doing in a sustainable way.

00:27:23: I think that is exactly sort of the conversation one needs to have regardless whether its mine or any other company.

00:27:30: Yeah definitely One side of this.

00:27:37: we are looking into companies who actually legal pressure on them, where they have like a judgment that they have to find green solution.

00:27:51: That is something we can use actually identify who are the clients out there?

00:27:59: Who I wouldn't say desperate but in big need of these solutions.

00:28:06: so it's also help though.

00:28:10: Yeah, a really good point there.

00:28:12: And then let's turn this conversation after we look back at the history.

00:28:17: Let's look ahead and you gave some of the roadmap way early in terms Of what are looking into.

00:28:23: but if You know If it were to record this conversation In three two five years again What would you hope that has happened between?

00:28:32: so?

00:28:33: How should my mind look in three-to-five years from now?

00:28:37: I mean well i hope or will be work towards now is that we're going to establish micromine and especially the biological process, the bioremediation.

00:28:50: We want it be a go-to solution – it needs to be an established or standard solution.

00:28:59: so this is what we work on really talking about governments government agencies and so on to be able to sort of spread the word.

00:29:08: So hopefully in three or five years we have established ourselves in Sweden, maybe in the Nordic countries And hopefully will have a couple new projects in Europe.

00:29:24: Germany Netherlands Belgium were already discussing with this areas and they have huge problems especially in the harbour areas, right?

00:29:37: In the Netherlands and Belgium and Poland.

00:29:40: So hopefully we've established a couple of systems I would say northern Europe.

00:29:50: Yeah.

00:29:50: so basically i hope that we will have like mycomine offices all around europe at least five

00:30:06: years.

00:30:06: And then my last question to you would be sort of and that's another reflection.

00:30:11: Of your journey, what is it?

00:30:14: That keeps you going because obviously you describe your way off.

00:30:19: You know he did all this research before and now you're the one of the co-founders in the CEO of a deep tech startup company and that has two tackle very conservative industries.

00:30:32: So they, you know there's always a... I always say this is more comfortable life somewhere waiting for potentially right like he could have chosen purposefully the harder route.

00:30:49: so something must be in that challenge that we really enjoy and i wonder what it keeps going to embrace those challenges work each day on bringing about technology and bring about the plan that my commander five years will be in very different or it will be different European countries.

00:31:09: I have always said, that i am driven by curiosity.

00:31:13: That's my main goal And thats been since day one when I was a researcher.

00:31:20: I've always followed my curiosity and Thats why My career has taken so many detours or what we should call it.

00:31:31: One thing leads to another and I just need to understand how that works, What is this?

00:31:37: And where can takes me in a lot of ways even when... We're still doing a lot ground research here at MicroMind.

00:31:46: so there's curiosity driven for each case by new challenges, we need to overcome them.

00:31:56: We need understand how can you make this work better?

00:32:01: So yeah I think that is the key word actually my whole career curiosity.

00:32:10: That's what research based on.

00:32:15: why have researched?

00:32:16: and i would say it drives my mind further.

00:32:22: Yeah, it's a wonderful quality to have.

00:32:24: I feel curiosity is also what sparked this podcast.

00:32:28: so really feel you there and for me It's really about Well talking to founders like you understanding solutions that i've never heard of before.

00:32:38: just You know we talked about magic mushrooms as a concept?

00:32:44: you weren't aware of before trying to understand how it works, trying to see and assess its potential.

00:32:52: And then really sees contribution too most sustainable.

00:32:55: well this is the whole thing why I run the show.

00:32:58: Why Keep Doing It?

00:33:00: Well thank you for sharing your story.

00:33:01: i think was exactly what i hoped it would be because i learned so much that i didn't learn before.

00:33:09: So good luck on your scale up journey.

00:33:11: Good luck with my command.

00:33:12: Thank You For Sharing Your Story.