Lukas Porz - ILLUTHERM

00:00:01: Welcome to the Rooted in Change

00:00:02: podcast.

00:00:05: Hey everyone, my name is Jan and you're listening To The Rooted In Change Podcast.

00:00:08: This show features European clean tech champions And their solutions to tackle climate crisis.

00:00:13: Today's guest is Lukas CEO and founder of Illytherm.

00:00:16: Decarbonizing high temperature industrial heat Is still one Of the biggest challenges for the energy transition Now.

00:00:22: today Industrial Heat is mostly produced by burning gas.

00:00:25: But Lukas had a better idea.

00:00:27: Instead of traditional fossil fuel kilns that waste massive amounts of energy heating the surrounding, they use blue LED light.

00:00:35: Generating heat directly inside the material itself.

00:00:38: this highly precise technology can bring materials from zero to over one thousand degrees Celsius in just a matter seconds which maximizes energy efficiency and enables complete CO₂ neutral industrial processing.

00:00:51: We'll find out how exactly that works with Lucas in just few minutes.

00:00:55: Welcome!

00:00:56: Hi,

00:00:57: hi Lucas.

00:00:58: And before we start diving into today's topic and your company I want to know a bit more about you.

00:01:05: so why don't you introduce yourself?

00:01:06: To the audience?

00:01:07: yeah um i'm lucas i'm a material scientist by training.

00:01:12: at age twenty i thought my life is too boring.

00:01:14: So i started to live abroad spend a year in china

00:01:18: nice

00:01:18: uh went through the u.s At MIT then came back do a phd a material science here in Darmstadt, Germany.

00:01:27: And it wasn't very fundamental science like deforming ceramics and semiconducting properties and all this kind of stuff.

00:01:34: As a side idea for the site project I wanted to fire ceramics really fast but realized there was not good way to do that.

00:01:47: just thinking about what would be nice if you could use light to transmit energy.

00:01:55: And then me and my colleague were laughing in the office, but that at least never... Yeah.

00:02:02: It just stuck with me.

00:02:05: quite quickly I realized it needs to be actually blue light or the blacklight which makes your clothes glow on a nightclub.

00:02:14: That's even better.

00:02:18: This is how this started.

00:02:20: So when you thought your life was too boring, and you went to China then the US.

00:02:24: You also decided them two found a company making I guess your live lot more interesting.

00:02:31: so tell us about that fundamental process?

00:02:36: How does how does technology work?

00:02:38: in which is mentioned?

00:02:38: it's It's the blue light but sort of high.

00:02:41: how does this work in practice?

00:02:44: Mm-hmm.

00:02:45: It say its a complete mindset shift that we're doing here Like the industrial heat is like, the oldest industrial process in mankind since many thousand years.

00:02:56: Ceramics are fired in furnaces and they haven't changed much.

00:03:01: They got a different shape than that of wood burning natural gas today.

00:03:06: But it's same with burning or we're emitting a lot of CO too.

00:03:11: The process to create high temperatures

00:03:14: Yeah And you always need an insulated box inside And it's, we've seen a change happen in our kitchens about twenty years ago.

00:03:26: Before when I was small kid We only had an oven to eat food and would always take long needs pre-eating and so on.

00:03:35: My parents wanted buy microwave like.

00:03:38: i didn't understand why because already have an oven.

00:03:43: They said yeah also want to buy a small freezer for the kitchen But we have a freezer downstairs.

00:03:51: And then I asked like whether it can make pizza?

00:03:55: No, and then... ...I ask like what that can make food for all five of us!

00:04:01: Then the answer was also no.

00:04:02: It's like What do you want with this

00:04:03: thing?!

00:04:04: So i really didn't understand it but later I realized This machine meant That I could have my lunch in ten minutes instead Of having bread again.

00:04:17: It fundamentally changed how things work.

00:04:20: And this is what makes us different from many other approaches that are being done in climate tech right now, because if you use hydrogen, we still do the same thing.

00:04:32: You just yet again used a different fuel for that which comes with a different source but you still have a box and you're still having flame!

00:04:41: This is what's different to us

00:04:44: And we'll talk about that in just a second instead of then how this works.

00:04:48: In practice moving away from the box, but what I found really interesting and preparing for today's conversation was also What you just mentioned moving away form these limitations which is in burning Well any kind of gas nowadays.

00:05:05: so whether it's hydrogen or natural gas You're accepting that your ultimately generating a lot of heat that doesn't necessarily go to the real product, but is wasted as waste heat through surrounding air and.

00:05:20: That's just mind blowing me.

00:05:22: then sort of you using a lot fuel for them.

00:05:26: I mean still effect but comparatively little effect right.

00:05:30: i think thats also what your targeting today.

00:05:33: we're moving away from this mindset preheating so all the surroundings but now rather focus on they are the task at hand using the energy a lot more effectively that we have at hand.

00:05:46: Yeah, and it's also like with the example of the microwave if you just had the oven at home You would never think off Just putting your tea because It's too cold just for thirty seconds right to the oven Because I would take like fifteen minutes to heat up Yep And then another ten two really get the tea To the temperature you'd like to drink again.

00:06:07: So he wouldn't even think of doing That.

00:06:09: but for the microwave is easy stick it in press a button And there you go.

00:06:13: So it opens the door to even do completely new things.

00:06:17: and like rethink that way, what are they doing?

00:06:22: This is why we call this theme Rethink Heat because... We change the concept which means all limitations change.

00:06:34: That allows us really re-think heat from different approaches.

00:06:39: Right.

00:06:40: So let's focus on that.

00:06:42: In rethinking heat, how does that work in practice?

00:06:45: What are the applications of your technology?

00:06:48: and maybe lets start there.

00:06:52: Yeah it is many dimensions where this happens.

00:06:56: On one hand its really fast.

00:06:59: We can reach temperatures needed within just a few seconds Whereas furnace I used as scientist at university It would take all night to do heating.

00:07:09: So if I thought are, I need to do an experiment or an experimental series then doing ten experiments would be at least two weeks of work.

00:07:18: To get done.

00:07:20: so i would plan three to four experimental series per year something.

00:07:26: because why think about more?

00:07:30: But but If you can work with light You can actually have the case where a colleague asked me Can you also melt aluminum with it?

00:07:40: And I was trying to explain that this should be possible, and they said no.

00:07:47: No, just go the machine put in melted the aluminum shot a picture and send email.

00:07:53: four-and-a-half minutes later

00:07:54: done

00:07:56: So... That means now we have result already.

00:08:00: You can think about next experimental series Do that half an hour later Then have the results come back in after lunch to another three experimental series.

00:08:10: That means all the progress and signs you would've usually done in half a year, You can do within a week.

00:08:17: And this is like with the engineering speed of ThreeD printing With computer assistive design that really sped up how fast we can develop things.

00:08:31: This happening on the materials development side here.

00:08:35: And if you just think about it, like why would you accept that an experimental series takes several weeks to do and can only iterate so quickly?

00:08:49: I think its a total paradigm shift.

00:08:52: That testing materials becomes much faster.

00:09:00: Again the limitations we've accepted for such long.

00:09:04: the image of the box.

00:09:05: I think that's a very good one.

00:09:07: just to leave those behind and move to sort-of completely new playing field as we've discussed with, you know...

00:09:19: And it's hard to grasp like for example if you're thinking about investing in stock market.

00:09:25: ten percent interest is better than five percent and fifty percent would be even.

00:09:30: But if you get like one percent per day, that's several hundred percent by the end of the year.

00:09:37: So it just... It is completely different league.

00:09:43: I think its interesting how people don't have an idea about compounding interest in this case and i think what you are saying right?

00:09:50: This advance also compounds on your hand because you're able to move so much faster compared with traditional approaches.

00:09:59: It is outside of the box that people can usually imagine, and it actually got me in trouble at the beginning because as a scientist I always wanted to become a professor.

00:10:11: That i wrote proposals... And they actually got rejected!

00:10:15: I should plan my experiments more carefully.. ...I was overly ambitious.

00:10:20: but once you get there so many things then yeah that becomes easy

00:10:28: Really interesting.

00:10:29: and how is that reflected in your company?

00:10:32: because I would assume That you know shifting paradigms, it's always great from From the outside.

00:10:39: It's a great narrative.

00:10:40: right to say look we've been doing things A certain way And now We need To forget about all of this.

00:10:46: let's do it In This Way which Is a lot better if i love those Stories Because they're They're Powerful Society and the status quo.

00:10:57: yet when it comes to Applying that change, I can sometimes be hard Because people are very much used to their way of thinking in.

00:11:04: they were operating and so on And then like what?

00:11:07: why should i changed my?

00:11:09: Production process?

00:11:10: you know You guys Are a few years old as A company.

00:11:14: I've use this method for So long It works.

00:11:16: i'm not going To make This change an out-of-send year stuck In this.

00:11:19: no one wants to Be The first Reversal.

00:11:22: Maybe if He Can Save Few Words About maybe also reflecting from the journey that you just described.

00:11:28: That paradigm shift gets in trouble with your research, how was it when you founded this company and had those first conversations both with investors but also customers?

00:11:38: Yeah so for people who start here we have a mentality where if they do things same as before then probably shouldn't work And we always start with making requirements as dumb, try to do radically new ways of doing things and really building up speed here.

00:12:06: For the investor side that's a rather positive thing because they tend to have the vision how things could look like in ten years.

00:12:17: On the customer-side it is kind of ambivalent.

00:12:23: But then on the other hand, there's some skepticism because no one has really been doing it before.

00:12:34: People tend to need a bit more proof than they would usually need.

00:12:38: so yeah this is one of our daily challenges to go through this process.

00:12:48: and how do you go about this in just practice?

00:12:50: Is there anything that understand that change or sort of get that acceptance.

00:12:58: Yeah, so I talked earlier about the meaning of how fast experiments go.

00:13:04: and our experience is when someone comes over for a trial day we tell them to bring us certain number of samples in particularly very low value samples.

00:13:15: they can throw it

00:13:17: yeah

00:13:18: through in throughout don't care.

00:13:21: And then we usually schedule the day to have like a demo and do run, a set of experiments.

00:13:26: Then have lunch!

00:13:28: By lunch they realize what's been telling them that stuff goes fast... ...and you cannot really plan whats gonna happen in the afternoon is real thing.

00:13:37: so people often need experience it but then tend get it The next time they show up.

00:13:45: They know how things can be done.

00:13:49: I think thats great learning for Anyone who's also running a hardware and climate tech company to say, look people need to exchange or people need experience that.

00:14:00: That reality in the change in person I think especially with that speed component which i think is so crucial about your approach into technology?

00:14:09: I think it's very smart.

00:14:10: you sort of split this day even in half and make them realize by lunch with sort.

00:14:17: They sit down and realize how far they've come in just, you know the morning And that's exactly what you've been telling them.

00:14:23: But now they have experienced it themselves Moving on because we talked a bit about different materials already.

00:14:33: In the beginning of my intro I mentioned ceramics.

00:14:36: but is It true?

00:14:38: That you can use your technology for A wide array of materials where heat industrial heat is involved, or let me rephrase this.

00:14:48: Where would you like to see your technology applied in the future?

00:14:52: Is there sort of one-to three core industries where we say look this is a perfect fit for

00:14:56: us?".

00:14:57: Yes it's kind of like with a microwave.

00:15:00: not every of your food is good enough on a microwave.

00:15:04: There are some where its'nt a great idea but for most of them that is and thats similar.

00:15:12: We can heat alot materials and we've realized that the point where it makes most sense for us to start with, there's more potential later on is like heating of metals in particular steel.

00:15:28: And particularly looking at applications were you don't want to heat all of them but if you focus only a certain area which is difficult to do within normal furnace but which is it's very easy for us and This is where you can if think about energy cost saving this way have of course the The largest lever because only hit ten percent of the material.

00:15:58: You save ninety percent outright And also, there's allows you to run your process differently kind of other advantages.

00:16:09: Yeah.

00:16:09: so the sweet spot is like heating metal metal sheets, and in particular when like some selective kind of heating comes.

00:16:21: Right where with these?

00:16:24: I guess because they're ultimately byproducts to then further industry processes.

00:16:29: for people who are not that familiar with uh...that whole industrial manufacturing process what a typical examples were metals for example being heated.

00:16:42: Actually these industrial heat processes, they're almost everywhere.

00:16:46: Like basically every metal that we use has been heated somewhere.

00:16:50: many of them have been heated several times actually like first formed then cut and then hardened all this kind of thing.

00:17:01: So it's hard to go around something that is not seen in the industry

00:17:09: which is also, then that's a fair and good answer to say look it's everything.

00:17:14: Which just I think for me explaining industry here.

00:17:19: we've worked with the number of technologies in the past who operate in that space... It's so mind-blowing!

00:17:26: For example how much industrial steam produced nowadays that there's much better solutions out there.

00:17:36: That are either cost-competitive and don't use fossil fuels, i.e gas

00:17:41: anymore.".

00:17:42: And I think it is just so crazy.

00:17:44: the level of production in manufacturing isn't visible to every day Joe.

00:17:55: It happens behind scenes.

00:17:57: for example when we're thinking about car manufacturing you always have idea that this orange robot, you know moving parts from A to B and he realized okay there's some welding involved.

00:18:07: And so on.

00:18:08: I get that sort of

00:18:09: how

00:18:10: that part of assembling a car is done but would lead the parts actually being there.

00:18:18: looking in their way.

00:18:18: they look.

00:18:21: people don't tend think about it.

00:18:24: Many of them are heated before they're formed or stronger than lighter but also like the shovel you used to dig in your garden, and also the knife he use to cut your vegetables.

00:18:37: All of these have been eaten and

00:18:40: harmed.".

00:18:43: Yeah I think that's a good reflection because many people don't really think about this fact... Cool!

00:18:49: So we were saying it is basically every process for example where metals are being heated formed.

00:19:03: How far have you come then on your journey to just transform that industry and replace gas as the primary source of heat?

00:19:12: And contribute in a better, smarter way?

00:19:20: So we are now three years old And it all started with me not accepting that this research is not funded and going to the hardware store, bouldering my own soldering gun.

00:19:34: Buying LEDs online just saying like god damnit I'll do it myself then quitting my job.

00:19:39: So we really start at zero.

00:19:42: By now we manufacture our own electronics have our software build our own LED assemblies All of these stuff around which took a while.

00:19:52: Yeah, and if you praise it like that three years is not too long.

00:19:56: But again maybe that's also.

00:19:58: Maybe have a different perception of time.

00:20:00: It feels like time needs to move faster for you That you're not accepting that things take sometimes Sometimes.

00:20:06: so maybe this is actually very helpful quality as the founder.

00:20:08: So

00:20:10: some Some people in academia call it unpatient.

00:20:14: I think there's negative framing.

00:20:18: i Think more from day.

00:20:21: You have an idea to the day that there's a product on the market based on the fundamental research you're doing.

00:20:29: That being four years is more what I like than just having a paper after four years.

00:20:37: Yeah, now we will be launching our first product in the end of September and The big challenge now is to work with all of these industrial customers who want to use it in larger industrial production, make sure that the quality works.

00:21:02: That dimensioning works and then many cases LEDs on this size or quality haven't been built before.

00:21:10: Of course you have to redo them at first time.

00:21:15: So basically setting up the pilot plant as a task we're currently addressing

00:21:20: Right, so it's that scale after any of you have your proof-of concept and now You need to build Your pilot plant in order to scale further And being able To deliver the quantities That are being demanded by industry.

00:21:33: Yeah.

00:21:33: The good thing is our system Is quite modular which means Once we've demonstrated In one way its very easy to adapt.

00:21:43: Very happy about that

00:21:46: I can imagine because It also derisks sort Of every further Application right sort of once you've done it there.

00:21:52: It's very easy to Adjusted and transform into the next application.

00:21:59: What?

00:21:59: The biggest concern coming then from your industrial partners have they.

00:22:04: I mean, They must have shared positive feedback so far given how fast You're being able to move in just three years.

00:22:10: And again many other hardware companies that we work with they ever had a time scaling In That time period Also doing something that's never been done before.

00:22:22: First of all, kind is always an issue because you have so many obstacles in your way and we talked about it during our conversation again.

00:22:29: You need to educate both investors but also your potential partners.

00:22:36: It's mind-blowing.

00:22:37: they don't trust right from the start.

00:22:39: then you just source the right components as hasn't really be done Before.

00:22:42: there are a lot engineering work that needs to put into the work on.

00:22:45: So list of challenges I guess almost endless And yet it seems like you've overcome that.

00:22:51: So sort of what's the one or two things where people still say, can I fully trust this?

00:22:58: I think the biggest concerns are actually the boundary conditions in general but particularly in Germany unfortunately The ratio between the cost off natural gas.

00:23:12: despite war on Ukraine and Russia natural gas is still significantly cheaper than electricity.

00:23:22: So no matter, even if you had a perfect technology with one hundred percent efficiency and it would want to replace incumbent technology It will be cheaper to burn natural gas.

00:23:38: That's just an unfortunate fact which maybe our administration not addressing aggressively enough to find ways, to drive down the cost of electricity and renewable sources.

00:23:55: And make sure it's actually available in all places.

00:24:01: because once that is the case... Back into this year I had a conversation with Steven Chu, Nobel laureate for my American Energy Ministry said like we're gonna fund solar until its cheaper than building coal all the dominating power plant being installed as solar.

00:24:24: So that's going to win.

00:24:25: because of economics, it doesn't matter what the government is gonna say now Because if solar is cheaper than coal who wants to build coal?

00:24:34: And we in Germany haven't understood this principle quite as good.

00:24:41: That our key job is drive electricity The price for electricity down so really competes with the fossils and then is kind of downhill from that.

00:24:52: So, yeah for them like everyone knows this going to happen but in a few years and those people are the most eager to invest into technologies now other ones actually get extra benefits on their side.

00:25:11: as I mentioned if you can change your process or more flexibility do something local.

00:25:17: these that are ready and excited today.

00:25:23: I think reflecting upon what you just said, it's really interesting since especially reflecting on the German position here in Germany doesn't have any natural resource.

00:25:38: i mean there is a bit of coal left but thats about it right?

00:25:41: There no major oil gas resources because this whole conversation around energy has also shifted to resilience and you know energy independence.

00:25:53: And so on, I think what he just said is really smart to say the key job should be to bring down the price of electricity as much as we can that's by investing into those sources That nowadays have the cheapest low levelized cost of electricity or energy which is solar.

00:26:13: by all means if you look at all the data available there was recently also a very interesting story published by Bloomberg who, they detailed how long it took us on a global install capacity to go from.

00:26:26: I think was Gigawatts installed maybe?

00:26:33: From one two three and sort of just the speed of adoption has increased so far.

00:26:38: And still that isn't really a story.

00:26:41: It took us until the mid-twenty tenths.

00:26:44: i think reach.

00:26:45: uh One gigawatt installed capacity globally took a shorter period and then from two to three was really short.

00:26:55: It's also what we talked about earlier, this compounding effect nowadays mostly driven by China interestingly but they've really understood that.

00:27:06: you know the cost of energy is strategic advantage in those global conversations and electrification is the way to go as we've seen also in mobility, you know battery technologies.

00:27:18: And so I think that's what she just described.

00:27:20: it really interesting reflection from an industrial or political industrial complex here.

00:27:27: Yeah We have kind of unfortunate stance year like when the war in Iran started Like there were discussions actually legislation on subsidizing fuel for cars So people don't have to pay so much Technologies there to have electricity and technologies.

00:27:44: They're to have electric cars.

00:27:46: You wouldn't even need that to have that problem at all.

00:27:49: so it would be way better To just go to their technology, I never worry about where the fuel comes from ever again.

00:27:56: But this is unfortunately not always a discussion.

00:27:58: we are having you sometimes more focused on What happens today instead of how do we solve our problems for tomorrow?

00:28:05: Yeah which is why I asked you earlier sort of also, what was the reflection from customers and investors?

00:28:10: because i think it's very much similar when people like to protect what they have today.

00:28:15: And are not prone to change even if its in their interest or change?

00:28:19: Just one correction for myself.

00:28:20: It wasn't gigawatts but terrawatts Which makes a whole lot more sense given the global scale From one two three over the last fifteen years or so, which is quite interesting.

00:28:36: We passed the one terawatt mark in twenty-twenty to two terawatts mid twenty four and now three just In the beginning of twenty six.

00:28:45: So it's that speed of installation capacity being added globally Which was quiet quite interesting tuning again because this.

00:28:56: there's one more aspect I want you want to turn too?

00:29:02: Reflection, ilotherm is now a bit older than three years and you've achieved quite a bit in this time period.

00:29:12: If we take the same time period so three years ahead what do you think will happen in that period?

00:29:18: And What would you like to see?

00:29:19: I mean obviously The pilot plant.

00:29:21: it's one big thing also already mentioned but what else there That he would like to accomplish at that time period?

00:29:27: how well illotherm look.

00:29:30: I would see it much beyond the pilot plant.

00:29:32: I will see a whole product line in the market and see actually in application, And what they're aiming for is that mindset around adoption of such new technology has shifted.

00:29:47: so many people have tried it That many hundreds or thousands talked about it Have run their own trials with it.

00:29:55: With a microwave.

00:29:56: today everyone knows those food gets hot Some doesn't, but still a good idea to buy one.

00:30:02: That it's just the acceptance of using this new technology and actually the availability is there.

00:30:09: And that from then on The challenge only becomes how can we scale?

00:30:15: Can be scaled as fast enough?

00:30:20: It kind like you were saying with the solar.

00:30:23: It gonna take us awhile To build the first solar cells and install the first X megawatts or gigawatts whatever the correct scales in this case.

00:30:33: Or globally terror.

00:30:34: what's now?

00:30:35: Yeah, for the solar I don't know whether they release that will be the same.

00:30:42: but then like once it's there people know that technologies works prices are at a reasonable level and like the willingness to adopt this kind of thing is there.

00:30:51: Then when the stone gets into rolling And i want you see this tipping point

00:31:00: Nice, it's a good ambition.

00:31:03: Also because I'm sometimes frustrated by the fact that things take so long an image before people in academia might call it impatient i just think its nice to see things happen fast and big fan of speed and like-to-see change implemented fast also with all research we know don't really have time to wait if there is no brainer solution out which again, if you reflect upon the beginning of conversation where we talked about hey this paradigm has been there for so long.

00:31:37: We've earned something to create heat and then it's a much better way than we should do in a much more effective way.

00:31:43: now that we found it... You found it!

00:31:46: So let us go with all those things.

00:31:47: I think that ambition is a good one.

00:31:51: Yeah, then

00:31:52: I have.

00:31:53: we won't be able to solve all of the industries problems.

00:31:55: There's certain applications that don't work.

00:31:57: You also some of the bigger ones.

00:31:59: So there's also need to be other ideas.

00:32:00: but just to clarify that

00:32:02: yeah We look as a startup founder.

00:32:05: I don't think you can be that humble.

00:32:06: I think he should always go for you know if we're gonna solve it All and then later on the road figure out the stuff that you can't solve.

00:32:13: i think um That is clear that you cancel everyone's problems and there will be applications where it doesn't work.

00:32:21: But

00:32:21: for the grand scale of things, that doesn't really matter at least from my

00:32:24: perspective.".

00:32:26: That brings me though to my last question which is as many other founders on this podcast who joined before our conversation you've done a similar journey of research R&D academia identifying an resolution maybe not so much the problem first but sort of stumbling over a core idea Getting stuck in there and then realizing look, it's time to spin this out as a company.

00:32:53: And you've did so successfully.

00:32:56: But what is that?

00:32:57: That keeps you going each day at what sort of is this motivating factor In wanting to see the change fast?

00:33:07: It's like I felt this as a scientist A few times before for some of the big successes i had scientifically Before.

00:33:15: we just see something that other people don't see.

00:33:17: any know This is gonna be Really important big change and I just want to see it happen as a. I can't sit still And like wait until someone else figures out in ten years.

00:33:31: I wanna see that now, but I'm gonna see the whole impact unfold.

00:33:36: So That alone keeps me keeps me going

00:33:40: Right?

00:33:41: It's good answer.

00:33:42: Well with that Lucas thank you so much for making at this time.

00:33:45: This was a really energizing conversation wishing you all the best and hope to see that change happen fast.

00:33:54: I'll be cheering for you from the sidelines, then we will check in if you used on the road to see how far you've come again with my view of global world domination.

00:34:04: let's see but at least may wish me good luck!

00:34:08: We're on it.

00:34:09: thanks so much for your time.